8 ms·

> In Seattle, for example, I think the sun would rise before 5 am as late as early August. On the other hand, if Seattle stayed on DST (+7) year-round then the

> In Seattle, for example, I think the sun would rise before 5 am as late as early August. On the other hand, if Seattle stayed on DST (+7) year-round then the sun would rise after 8AM from early November to late February, and as late as 9AM in December. Your comment points out the real absurdity which is why are so stuck on the machinations of numbers on a clock, and ~24 granular timezones rather than just having humans be human and 1) get the sleep they need and 2) be productive when it makes sense to, regardless of the digits. I doubt pre-industrial people thought to hard about if they chopped wood at exactly 9am, or if it might have been 8:37 or even 11am.

xyzzyz 5y ago
Preindustrial people haven’t been a part of global economy nearly to the same degree we are. They haven’t had to coordinate so much with other people in their daily tasks. Think about a factory working in shifts: it cannot work effectively if every worker comes whenever it suits him, works for 8 hours and leaves. You need coordination to achieve efficiency. Same is true for most other places of employment. Government offices and retail establishments have opening hours. Schools have schedules. Sure, in some jobs, there is a lot of flexibility, but not all of them can provide that, so as a society, we will be stuck with schedules and tyranny of the clock for the foreseeable future.
- pishpash 5y ago
  Government and retail opening hours are already very grating. People do what they can online which is more convenient.
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  > Government offices and retail establishments have opening hours. Online fixes like 99% of this. > Schools have schedules and yet khan academy does not > Think about a factory working in shifts yes, but there's no reason these shifts have to be fixed in time across the year, people are so hung up on 9-5, or 8-5 or some other hour bound fixed pattern. Why not come in at 8am on June 21, and 1 minute later per day until Dec 21, then 1 minute earlier per day till june 21? See the point here? The majority of cases can be entirely eliminated / designed out of existence. Many can become flexible to the reality of the sunrise/set and circadian rhythms . A few will have to still provide 24 hour coverage for emergency or utility backup type things.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    > Online fixes like 99% of this. No, online fixes some of it, not 99%. I can’t fix my car online. > Why not come in at 8am on June 21, and 1 minute later per day until Dec 21, then 1 minute earlier per day till june 21? The absurdity of this proposition is illustrative of the challenges the reality pushes upon you. No, having to figure out whether your shift starts at 8:36 AM or 8:42 AM today is not an improvement over status quo.
    - maerF0x0 5y ago
      >No, online fixes some of it, not 99%. I can’t fix my car online. But you can schedule the fix, pay for the fix, feedback the fix etc all online. Now that much of the world is working remote, we drive a lot less, and mechanics are needed less. See how this keeps feeding back into itself when we accept a new way of approaching life that isn't "butts in seats" and "in before the boss, leave after the boss" management?
      - xyzzyz 5y ago
        > But you can schedule the fix, pay for the fix, feedback the fix etc all online. I can’t, however, fix my car online, which is the entire point. > Now that much of the world is working remote, we drive a lot less No, we drive only a little less. Miles driven fell only 13% in 2020 vs 2019, and people drive more in 2021 than they had in 2020. > See how this keeps feeding back into itself when we accept a new way of approaching life that isn't "butts in seats" and "in before the boss, leave after the boss" management? Yeah, soon we will be able to do everything online, and will not have to see and talk to another human being, ever.
        maerF0x0 5y ago
        > and will not have to see and talk to another human being, ever. Except by choice, which imo is a good thing! I hope it will help people start to become cognizant, proactive, and invested in true community more than community by proximity and happenstance. Saying hi to the same cashier is nice and all, but there is a lot of depth of truer community that has been left by a gap of the church leaving the mainstream. (not suggesting it return as the replacement, just identifying a gap the change left). Then we can begin to build community with people we choose to more than just because we live in the same zipcode or go to the same tax bracket targeted shops .
sime2009 5y ago
Are you seriously suggesting that society could operate on system where people just work at any time of the day whenever they felt like it?
- pishpash 5y ago
  Not parent, but yes? And why not, work any time is a natural evolution after work anywhere. I'm sure virtual reality and AI can fill in for the human illusion of synchronous communication one day.
  - sime2009 5y ago
    Good grief. It really is time for some of you people to step away from the computer, get out of the tech bubble for a while and have a look at what most people in society are doing for a living.
    - Nasrudith 5y ago
      We really need to get over that tiresome and foolish self-flagellation complex of the "tech bubble" and the notion that our work isn't "real work". If an office worker walked into a construction site and declared they were doing everything wrong from the lack of paperwork documenting completion of every shovel of dirt they would be called a clueless, arrogant ass. Why would it be any different if the subject was a construction worker in an office building declaring it unproductive for a lack of tonnage of paper relocated?
      - sime2009 5y ago
        You are misunderstanding my point here. I'm not saying that IT work isn't real work. We're discussing flexible working times for all of society, and what I'm reading is people who somehow assume that most of society is in a job with privileges like being able to work from home or on "async" schedules etc. Few jobs are like this.
        5y ago

xyzzyz 5y ago

Preindustrial people haven’t been a part of global economy nearly to the same degree we are. They haven’t had to coordinate so much with other people in their daily tasks. Think about a factory working in shifts: it cannot work effectively if every worker comes whenever it suits him, works for 8 hours and leaves. You need coordination to achieve efficiency. Same is true for most other places of employment. Government offices and retail establishments have opening hours. Schools have schedules. Sure, in some jobs, there is a lot of flexibility, but not all of them can provide that, so as a society, we will be stuck with schedules and tyranny of the clock for the foreseeable future.

pishpash 5y ago
Government and retail opening hours are already very grating. People do what they can online which is more convenient.
maerF0x0 5y ago
> Government offices and retail establishments have opening hours. Online fixes like 99% of this. > Schools have schedules and yet khan academy does not > Think about a factory working in shifts yes, but there's no reason these shifts have to be fixed in time across the year, people are so hung up on 9-5, or 8-5 or some other hour bound fixed pattern. Why not come in at 8am on June 21, and 1 minute later per day until Dec 21, then 1 minute earlier per day till june 21? See the point here? The majority of cases can be entirely eliminated / designed out of existence. Many can become flexible to the reality of the sunrise/set and circadian rhythms . A few will have to still provide 24 hour coverage for emergency or utility backup type things.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  > Online fixes like 99% of this. No, online fixes some of it, not 99%. I can’t fix my car online. > Why not come in at 8am on June 21, and 1 minute later per day until Dec 21, then 1 minute earlier per day till june 21? The absurdity of this proposition is illustrative of the challenges the reality pushes upon you. No, having to figure out whether your shift starts at 8:36 AM or 8:42 AM today is not an improvement over status quo.
  - maerF0x0 5y ago
    >No, online fixes some of it, not 99%. I can’t fix my car online. But you can schedule the fix, pay for the fix, feedback the fix etc all online. Now that much of the world is working remote, we drive a lot less, and mechanics are needed less. See how this keeps feeding back into itself when we accept a new way of approaching life that isn't "butts in seats" and "in before the boss, leave after the boss" management?
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      > But you can schedule the fix, pay for the fix, feedback the fix etc all online. I can’t, however, fix my car online, which is the entire point. > Now that much of the world is working remote, we drive a lot less No, we drive only a little less. Miles driven fell only 13% in 2020 vs 2019, and people drive more in 2021 than they had in 2020. > See how this keeps feeding back into itself when we accept a new way of approaching life that isn't "butts in seats" and "in before the boss, leave after the boss" management? Yeah, soon we will be able to do everything online, and will not have to see and talk to another human being, ever.
      - maerF0x0 5y ago
        > and will not have to see and talk to another human being, ever. Except by choice, which imo is a good thing! I hope it will help people start to become cognizant, proactive, and invested in true community more than community by proximity and happenstance. Saying hi to the same cashier is nice and all, but there is a lot of depth of truer community that has been left by a gap of the church leaving the mainstream. (not suggesting it return as the replacement, just identifying a gap the change left). Then we can begin to build community with people we choose to more than just because we live in the same zipcode or go to the same tax bracket targeted shops .

sime2009 5y ago

Are you seriously suggesting that society could operate on system where people just work at any time of the day whenever they felt like it?

pishpash 5y ago
Not parent, but yes? And why not, work any time is a natural evolution after work anywhere. I'm sure virtual reality and AI can fill in for the human illusion of synchronous communication one day.
- sime2009 5y ago
  Good grief. It really is time for some of you people to step away from the computer, get out of the tech bubble for a while and have a look at what most people in society are doing for a living.
  - Nasrudith 5y ago
    We really need to get over that tiresome and foolish self-flagellation complex of the "tech bubble" and the notion that our work isn't "real work". If an office worker walked into a construction site and declared they were doing everything wrong from the lack of paperwork documenting completion of every shovel of dirt they would be called a clueless, arrogant ass. Why would it be any different if the subject was a construction worker in an office building declaring it unproductive for a lack of tonnage of paper relocated?
    - sime2009 5y ago
      You are misunderstanding my point here. I'm not saying that IT work isn't real work. We're discussing flexible working times for all of society, and what I'm reading is people who somehow assume that most of society is in a job with privileges like being able to work from home or on "async" schedules etc. Few jobs are like this.
      - 5y ago