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Do you have any direct refutations to my allegations? Do you have proof states are auditing for dead voters for example? I am willing to change my opinion if th

Do you have any direct refutations to my allegations? Do you have proof states are auditing for dead voters for example? I am willing to change my opinion if there is evidence to suggest credible voter fraud audits happen, but so far I have not been able to find any.

ceejayoz 5y ago
> Do you have proof states are auditing for dead voters for example? I mean, that's trivial. KY: https://www.wtvq.com/more-than-10000-dead-voters-removed-from-states-rolls/ https://www.wtvq.com/more-than-10000-dead-voters-removed-fro... NC: https://wlos.com/news/local/how-are-names-of-deceased-people-removed-from-voter-rolls https://wlos.com/news/local/how-are-names-of-deceased-people... CA: https://www.ocvote.com/registration/keeping-your-registration-up-to-date/cancellation-of-deceased-voter/details-about-removal-of-deceased-voters-from-voter-registration-list https://www.ocvote.com/registration/keeping-your-registratio... (this one is particularly detailed on the methods used, including "The Registrar of Voters office checks the obituaries listed in the newspapers daily" and "a list of deceased voters provided by the California Secretary of State’s office multiple times per year") FL: https://www.duvalelections.com/Voter-Information/Removal-of-Voter https://www.duvalelections.com/Voter-Information/Removal-of-... The Social Security Administration provides a list (https://www.ssa.gov/dataexchange/request_dmf.html https://www.ssa.gov/dataexchange/request_dmf.html), and states check against their own death certificates, bounced mail, and other methods. Sometimes people have trouble proving they're still alive, even. https://www.texastribune.org/2012/09/12/concerns-raised-after-living-voters-flagged-dead/ https://www.texastribune.org/2012/09/12/concerns-raised-afte... People who try it tend to get caught, because it's harder than it seems to get away with: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohio-faces-charge-voting-twice-november-election-n1271985 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohi... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/29/trump-supporter-charged-with-voting-twice-in-iowa/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/2...
- s5300 5y ago
  Yeah, 15 seconds of the slightest search efforts can bring any of this up. I've found time and time again that anybody who believes there is or ever has been even the slightest issue with "dead voters" is somebody who simply can't be reasoned with, and engagement just isn't worth the effort. They're completely lost and engulfed in a sea of "their own research"
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    The problem with all of this is that it's complicated, people misstate things, and everybody is eager to prove that "their side" is right. So then you get excessive claims like "no state purges voter rolls" which is just easily falsifiable, and then it gets falsified and leads one side to believe that to be the end of it. Whereas what really happens is that a state goes to purge its voter rolls, they have a list of 100,000 "dead people" and the list is erroneous and contains hundreds of live people, because government databases are full of dung. So then they get sued, often right before the election, to prevent any of the names from being purged, including any of the 99,000+ who were actually dead. Another thing that happens is that someone dies between the last purge and the election. Then either they submitted their ballot before they died (but were ineligible to vote because they weren't alive on election day), or they were sent a ballot after they died and a member of their family submitted it. So there are always a few dead people in every election who voted after they died, and some of these are actually fraud (in the second case), and others aren't "fraud" but they're still invalid votes that shouldn't be counted. Rarely if ever does this, alone, change the outcome; but the ballots are there. Which results in the over-claim on the other side. "There are zero dead people voting." Also easily falsifiable. Then each side gets to declare the other side wrong and biased and hidebound and irrational.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      What you say is true, but at the same time there was a voter fraud commission started in 2017, formed with the explicit charter of investigating such claims. This commission was disbanded after they couldn’t make progress showing that “thousands and thousands” of people fraudulently voted in 2016, causing then President Trump to lose the national popular vote. He made very specific claims about people being bussed around New England to vote across state lines, which is why he claims he lost New Hampshire that year. The claim is perpetually that there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Literally millions of dollars and an entire political party has set out to answer this question in the affirmative, but they can’t even prove their claims in a court of law. The most telling instance if this in the last year was Rudy Giuliani refusing to make a claim of “fraud” in front of any judge after the 2020 election, but claiming “fraud” as often as he could in front of any TV camera. So yes, both sides have overstated their case at times. But only one side is perpetually making a very strong case that they will never take to court where they have to provide specific evidence of their claims. It’s very notable and telling that the extreme case they say is the status quo (rampant voter fraud that stole the election from Trump not once but twice) has never been proven by them or anyone else. > Then each side gets to declare the other side wrong and biased and hidebound and irrational. Here is where we are right now. A team of auditors in Arizona spent months trying to show fraud occurred there that tipped the scales in Joe Biden’s favor. The result of their audit was that Joe Biden won a slightly larger margin than originally counted. How was this result spun by Trump? “We won on the Arizona forensic audit yesterday at a level that you wouldn’t believe … They had headlines that Biden wins in Arizona when they know it’s not true … He didn’t win in Arizona. He lost in Arizona based on the forensic audit." Did you get that? Trump loses Arizona, demands a recount, gets the recount, recount determines Trump did in fact lose, Trump claims exact opposite, and millions of people follow his lead and repeat this lie. That is the level of reality denial and irrationality coming out one particular party. This is a mind bending level of denial and delusion. So when you say things like the above, that “each side gets to declare the other wrong” it really serves to blur the context and normalize this insanity, making it seem like the two sides are the equally deluded. Yea maybe if you look only at the extremes, but this is the main stream GOP party leadership pushing this, not the fringe. The two sides are not the same on this issue.
- bgorman 5y ago
  As far as I can tell, none of those links provides evidence that the names of voters from ballots received is actually verified against death records. The links you sent seem to be around removing dead people from voter registration and instances of duplicate votes.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Ah, it's goalpost moves all the way down. The names of voters from ballots received are checked against the voter registration records. Which are checked against the death records. That there's an intermediate step doesn't mean it's not happening.
    - bgorman 5y ago
      There is an obvious flaw, which is that someone could die between the time voter registration for the election is finalized and when ballot is submitted. The fact that you ignore this suggests that you are not discussing this in good faith.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        I'm not ignoring it; my earlier example shows they catch exactly that. Again: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohio-faces-charge-voting-twice-november-election-n1271985 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohi... > Snodgrass was busted after a Delaware County election worker questioned the signature on his father’s ballot. A subsequent investigation revealed the ballot had been mailed to H. Edward Snodgrass on Oct. 6 — a day after the 78-year-old retired businessman died. Voter registration isn't "finalized"; quite a few states have same-day registration or provisional balloting. There's verification steps that happen on and after election day.

ceejayoz 5y ago

> Do you have proof states are auditing for dead voters for example? I mean, that's trivial. KY: https://www.wtvq.com/more-than-10000-dead-voters-removed-from-states-rolls/ https://www.wtvq.com/more-than-10000-dead-voters-removed-fro... NC: https://wlos.com/news/local/how-are-names-of-deceased-people-removed-from-voter-rolls https://wlos.com/news/local/how-are-names-of-deceased-people... CA: https://www.ocvote.com/registration/keeping-your-registration-up-to-date/cancellation-of-deceased-voter/details-about-removal-of-deceased-voters-from-voter-registration-list https://www.ocvote.com/registration/keeping-your-registratio... (this one is particularly detailed on the methods used, including "The Registrar of Voters office checks the obituaries listed in the newspapers daily" and "a list of deceased voters provided by the California Secretary of State’s office multiple times per year") FL: https://www.duvalelections.com/Voter-Information/Removal-of-Voter https://www.duvalelections.com/Voter-Information/Removal-of-... The Social Security Administration provides a list (https://www.ssa.gov/dataexchange/request_dmf.html https://www.ssa.gov/dataexchange/request_dmf.html), and states check against their own death certificates, bounced mail, and other methods. Sometimes people have trouble proving they're still alive, even. https://www.texastribune.org/2012/09/12/concerns-raised-after-living-voters-flagged-dead/ https://www.texastribune.org/2012/09/12/concerns-raised-afte... People who try it tend to get caught, because it's harder than it seems to get away with: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohio-faces-charge-voting-twice-november-election-n1271985 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohi... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/29/trump-supporter-charged-with-voting-twice-in-iowa/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/2...

s5300 5y ago
Yeah, 15 seconds of the slightest search efforts can bring any of this up. I've found time and time again that anybody who believes there is or ever has been even the slightest issue with "dead voters" is somebody who simply can't be reasoned with, and engagement just isn't worth the effort. They're completely lost and engulfed in a sea of "their own research"
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  The problem with all of this is that it's complicated, people misstate things, and everybody is eager to prove that "their side" is right. So then you get excessive claims like "no state purges voter rolls" which is just easily falsifiable, and then it gets falsified and leads one side to believe that to be the end of it. Whereas what really happens is that a state goes to purge its voter rolls, they have a list of 100,000 "dead people" and the list is erroneous and contains hundreds of live people, because government databases are full of dung. So then they get sued, often right before the election, to prevent any of the names from being purged, including any of the 99,000+ who were actually dead. Another thing that happens is that someone dies between the last purge and the election. Then either they submitted their ballot before they died (but were ineligible to vote because they weren't alive on election day), or they were sent a ballot after they died and a member of their family submitted it. So there are always a few dead people in every election who voted after they died, and some of these are actually fraud (in the second case), and others aren't "fraud" but they're still invalid votes that shouldn't be counted. Rarely if ever does this, alone, change the outcome; but the ballots are there. Which results in the over-claim on the other side. "There are zero dead people voting." Also easily falsifiable. Then each side gets to declare the other side wrong and biased and hidebound and irrational.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    What you say is true, but at the same time there was a voter fraud commission started in 2017, formed with the explicit charter of investigating such claims. This commission was disbanded after they couldn’t make progress showing that “thousands and thousands” of people fraudulently voted in 2016, causing then President Trump to lose the national popular vote. He made very specific claims about people being bussed around New England to vote across state lines, which is why he claims he lost New Hampshire that year. The claim is perpetually that there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Literally millions of dollars and an entire political party has set out to answer this question in the affirmative, but they can’t even prove their claims in a court of law. The most telling instance if this in the last year was Rudy Giuliani refusing to make a claim of “fraud” in front of any judge after the 2020 election, but claiming “fraud” as often as he could in front of any TV camera. So yes, both sides have overstated their case at times. But only one side is perpetually making a very strong case that they will never take to court where they have to provide specific evidence of their claims. It’s very notable and telling that the extreme case they say is the status quo (rampant voter fraud that stole the election from Trump not once but twice) has never been proven by them or anyone else. > Then each side gets to declare the other side wrong and biased and hidebound and irrational. Here is where we are right now. A team of auditors in Arizona spent months trying to show fraud occurred there that tipped the scales in Joe Biden’s favor. The result of their audit was that Joe Biden won a slightly larger margin than originally counted. How was this result spun by Trump? “We won on the Arizona forensic audit yesterday at a level that you wouldn’t believe … They had headlines that Biden wins in Arizona when they know it’s not true … He didn’t win in Arizona. He lost in Arizona based on the forensic audit." Did you get that? Trump loses Arizona, demands a recount, gets the recount, recount determines Trump did in fact lose, Trump claims exact opposite, and millions of people follow his lead and repeat this lie. That is the level of reality denial and irrationality coming out one particular party. This is a mind bending level of denial and delusion. So when you say things like the above, that “each side gets to declare the other wrong” it really serves to blur the context and normalize this insanity, making it seem like the two sides are the equally deluded. Yea maybe if you look only at the extremes, but this is the main stream GOP party leadership pushing this, not the fringe. The two sides are not the same on this issue.
bgorman 5y ago
As far as I can tell, none of those links provides evidence that the names of voters from ballots received is actually verified against death records. The links you sent seem to be around removing dead people from voter registration and instances of duplicate votes.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Ah, it's goalpost moves all the way down. The names of voters from ballots received are checked against the voter registration records. Which are checked against the death records. That there's an intermediate step doesn't mean it's not happening.
  - bgorman 5y ago
    There is an obvious flaw, which is that someone could die between the time voter registration for the election is finalized and when ballot is submitted. The fact that you ignore this suggests that you are not discussing this in good faith.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      I'm not ignoring it; my earlier example shows they catch exactly that. Again: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohio-faces-charge-voting-twice-november-election-n1271985 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohi... > Snodgrass was busted after a Delaware County election worker questioned the signature on his father’s ballot. A subsequent investigation revealed the ballot had been mailed to H. Edward Snodgrass on Oct. 6 — a day after the 78-year-old retired businessman died. Voter registration isn't "finalized"; quite a few states have same-day registration or provisional balloting. There's verification steps that happen on and after election day.