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If schools have become as much political institutions as educational institutions -- and there's little doubt about that -- why do they get public money at all?

If schools have become as much political institutions as educational institutions -- and there's little doubt about that -- why do they get public money at all? The real conflict of interest here is politicians spending your money for their political goals.

ceejayoz 5y ago
> why do they get public money at all? Because we still believe there to be a societal benefit to an educated populace.
- educaysean 5y ago
  Don't speak for the rest of us please. I personally believe there to be a massive societal disadvantage to the existence of "educational institutions" with hidden political agendas.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    You can believe anything you like, and it's a little silly to read "we" in my comment as "without even a single individual exception". We, society, currently elect representatives who see fit to continue funding a public educational system of schools and universities, which can be inferred to be a general acceptance of their value.
    - educaysean 5y ago
      And we, the society, are outraged at the blatant abuse of power we are witnessing in this article. We are shocked by how our current system may have critical vulnerabilities that compromise it's ability to deliver the education it promised, and are ready to discuss which aspect of the status quo may need to be improved upon.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        All that may be true; we'll have to see if society kicks up enough of a fuss. I hope it does in this case. I'm not sure how you get from "this university did a bad thing" to "we should get rid of public universities", though.
        OrvalWintermute 5y ago
        The issue is not getting rid of public universities. The issue is huge partisanship which has distorted academia from their mission.
  - jasonlotito 5y ago
    Then why do you feel qualified to speak for me?
- willis936 5y ago
  More than that: the market doesn't see past quarterly earnings. Private industry spends a lot on R&D but next to nothing on basic research [0]. Dollar for dollar, academic research that is not beholden to shareholder value theory produces science that is more useful for society. 0. https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20201/u-s-r-d-performance-and-funding https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20201/u-s-r-d-performance-and-...
- supperburg 5y ago
  Pick a random 18 year old and see if they can point to the country of Argentina on a map. The populace can read but not much else.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    Speaking as a person confident that I could point out Argentina on a map, why is geographic trivia a very important topic? I'd rather have a population with a good understanding of means and medians, thermodynamics, and the relationship between rates and accumulations, than one that can readily tell me the year that William the Conqueror invaded England.
    - supperburg 5y ago
      I agree but the point is that knowledge of the countries of the world is the most basic sign of education besides reading. The average 18 year old knows even less about science than geography. But geography is important because not knowing it is extremely embarrassing.
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        Knowledge about other countries is useful, geography less so. It would be just as embarrassing to have a conversation with an Argentinian and say "so what's it like living near Chile?"
    - xenophonf 5y ago
      Because literacy and numeracy are necessary but not sufficient for an educated polity. A good understanding of society, of history, of philosophy, and more all factor in. As do good critical thinking skills.
  - munificent 5y ago
    ...and before widespread public education, many of them couldn't even read.
    - 5y ago
orangepurple 5y ago
The short answer is that the University of Florida, and American Universities in general, are not accountable to YOU OR ME, but rather a handful of bureaucrats in the federal government, and in this case specifically the NIH, which air drops the most cash on the institution. Funding for NIH comes primarily from annual Labor, HHS, and Education (LHHS) Appropriations Acts, with an additional smaller amount for the Superfund Research Program from the Interior/Environment Appropriations Act.6 Those two bills provide NIH discretionary budget authority. The NIH then presumably has the US Federal Reserve electronically wire it a few billion $ from an internal account they electronically added a few zeros to beforehand. > UF received about $602 million in research funding from the federal government, including a record $250 million from the National Institutes of Health, the university’s largest research funding source. https://news.ufl.edu/2021/08/research-awards-/ https://news.ufl.edu/2021/08/research-awards-/
- duxup 5y ago
  Are they really accountable to those folks in the sense that they're running the universities / telling people they can't testify like this law? I think there is a big difference.
- jonathanwallace 5y ago
  The second half of this claim is a demonstrably weak generalization as to the source of power. The counter example is Georgia, where the Board of Regents is beholden to the politics of the Governor. See recently the fiasco with the pandemic i.e., mandated vaccines and mandated masks. Proof? The companies run by the members of the Board of Regents implemented different policies than the members themselves voted for the universities in the state of Georgia.
- Frondo 5y ago
  I would have said that public universities in the US are accountable to their boards of regents far moreso than the sinister "bureaucrats in the federal government." I didn't think much about this until the recent news that the University System of Georgia was effectively ending tenure for its professors, and the drivers of that policy were the USG Board of Regents. > To many professors, the most alarming proposal is that a faculty member may not only be separated from the university for clear cause, but also reasons “other than for cause," pursuant to other board policies. “Such other policies shall not be governed by or subject to the following policies on Grounds for Removal and Procedures for Dismissal,” the proposed change also says. From: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/04/tenure-under-threat-georgia https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/04/tenure-under-... So I looked up the USG Board of Regents: https://www.usg.edu/regents/members https://www.usg.edu/regents/members And it turns out that most of them are CEOs or work in finance -- the people who represent "capital" more than any others I can think of. For these people to decide that it should be easier to fire "tenured" professors makes sense to me, in that these are the people who would benefit most from being able to silence, for example, expert witnesses, far more than federal bureaucrats meddling in academic freedom.
dahfizz 5y ago
> If schools have become as much political institutions as educational institutions -- and there's little doubt about that -- why do they get public money at all? I think you've answered your own question. Why wouldn't the politicians in charge want to fund (and control) such a powerful political institution as education?
dragonwriter 5y ago
> If schools have become as much political institutions as educational institutions -- and there's little doubt about that -- why do they get public money at all? Things get public money because they are political; that is, connected to an agenda some group thinks is important for public governance. Why else would government fund a thing?

ceejayoz 5y ago

> why do they get public money at all? Because we still believe there to be a societal benefit to an educated populace.

educaysean 5y ago
Don't speak for the rest of us please. I personally believe there to be a massive societal disadvantage to the existence of "educational institutions" with hidden political agendas.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  You can believe anything you like, and it's a little silly to read "we" in my comment as "without even a single individual exception". We, society, currently elect representatives who see fit to continue funding a public educational system of schools and universities, which can be inferred to be a general acceptance of their value.
  - educaysean 5y ago
    And we, the society, are outraged at the blatant abuse of power we are witnessing in this article. We are shocked by how our current system may have critical vulnerabilities that compromise it's ability to deliver the education it promised, and are ready to discuss which aspect of the status quo may need to be improved upon.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      All that may be true; we'll have to see if society kicks up enough of a fuss. I hope it does in this case. I'm not sure how you get from "this university did a bad thing" to "we should get rid of public universities", though.
      - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
        The issue is not getting rid of public universities. The issue is huge partisanship which has distorted academia from their mission.
- jasonlotito 5y ago
  Then why do you feel qualified to speak for me?
willis936 5y ago
More than that: the market doesn't see past quarterly earnings. Private industry spends a lot on R&D but next to nothing on basic research [0]. Dollar for dollar, academic research that is not beholden to shareholder value theory produces science that is more useful for society. 0. https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20201/u-s-r-d-performance-and-funding https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20201/u-s-r-d-performance-and-...
supperburg 5y ago
Pick a random 18 year old and see if they can point to the country of Argentina on a map. The populace can read but not much else.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  Speaking as a person confident that I could point out Argentina on a map, why is geographic trivia a very important topic? I'd rather have a population with a good understanding of means and medians, thermodynamics, and the relationship between rates and accumulations, than one that can readily tell me the year that William the Conqueror invaded England.
  - supperburg 5y ago
    I agree but the point is that knowledge of the countries of the world is the most basic sign of education besides reading. The average 18 year old knows even less about science than geography. But geography is important because not knowing it is extremely embarrassing.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      Knowledge about other countries is useful, geography less so. It would be just as embarrassing to have a conversation with an Argentinian and say "so what's it like living near Chile?"
  - xenophonf 5y ago
    Because literacy and numeracy are necessary but not sufficient for an educated polity. A good understanding of society, of history, of philosophy, and more all factor in. As do good critical thinking skills.
- munificent 5y ago
  ...and before widespread public education, many of them couldn't even read.
  - 5y ago

orangepurple 5y ago

The short answer is that the University of Florida, and American Universities in general, are not accountable to YOU OR ME, but rather a handful of bureaucrats in the federal government, and in this case specifically the NIH, which air drops the most cash on the institution. Funding for NIH comes primarily from annual Labor, HHS, and Education (LHHS) Appropriations Acts, with an additional smaller amount for the Superfund Research Program from the Interior/Environment Appropriations Act.6 Those two bills provide NIH discretionary budget authority. The NIH then presumably has the US Federal Reserve electronically wire it a few billion $ from an internal account they electronically added a few zeros to beforehand. > UF received about $602 million in research funding from the federal government, including a record $250 million from the National Institutes of Health, the university’s largest research funding source. https://news.ufl.edu/2021/08/research-awards-/ https://news.ufl.edu/2021/08/research-awards-/

duxup 5y ago
Are they really accountable to those folks in the sense that they're running the universities / telling people they can't testify like this law? I think there is a big difference.
jonathanwallace 5y ago
The second half of this claim is a demonstrably weak generalization as to the source of power. The counter example is Georgia, where the Board of Regents is beholden to the politics of the Governor. See recently the fiasco with the pandemic i.e., mandated vaccines and mandated masks. Proof? The companies run by the members of the Board of Regents implemented different policies than the members themselves voted for the universities in the state of Georgia.
Frondo 5y ago
I would have said that public universities in the US are accountable to their boards of regents far moreso than the sinister "bureaucrats in the federal government." I didn't think much about this until the recent news that the University System of Georgia was effectively ending tenure for its professors, and the drivers of that policy were the USG Board of Regents. > To many professors, the most alarming proposal is that a faculty member may not only be separated from the university for clear cause, but also reasons “other than for cause," pursuant to other board policies. “Such other policies shall not be governed by or subject to the following policies on Grounds for Removal and Procedures for Dismissal,” the proposed change also says. From: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/04/tenure-under-threat-georgia https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/04/tenure-under-... So I looked up the USG Board of Regents: https://www.usg.edu/regents/members https://www.usg.edu/regents/members And it turns out that most of them are CEOs or work in finance -- the people who represent "capital" more than any others I can think of. For these people to decide that it should be easier to fire "tenured" professors makes sense to me, in that these are the people who would benefit most from being able to silence, for example, expert witnesses, far more than federal bureaucrats meddling in academic freedom.

dahfizz 5y ago

> If schools have become as much political institutions as educational institutions -- and there's little doubt about that -- why do they get public money at all? I think you've answered your own question. Why wouldn't the politicians in charge want to fund (and control) such a powerful political institution as education?

dragonwriter 5y ago

> If schools have become as much political institutions as educational institutions -- and there's little doubt about that -- why do they get public money at all? Things get public money because they are political; that is, connected to an agenda some group thinks is important for public governance. Why else would government fund a thing?