5 ms·

There's also an argument here about having (and signalling) respect for one's peers, craft and tools. The keyboard is a tool. To me, it feels disrespectful fo

by lbayes 5y ago

There's also an argument here about having (and signalling) respect for one's peers, craft and tools. The keyboard is a tool. To me, it feels disrespectful for a person to expect these high wages when they don't even make the moderate effort involved in learning to use this tool efficiently. In my experience, this usually signals that a person isn't actually interested in continuously improving, feels overly entitled and they tend to be a nightmare to work with. Most places I've worked require substantial pair programming or at least working through problems together on a regular basis. If you can't type, you're going to waste a lot of people's time and they may be too polite to say anything, but it's frustrating for everyone around you. A carpenter who claims to be experienced, but can't work a hammer efficiently would be ridiculed on a job site. I'm not proposing we ridicule anyone, but being unwilling to type and claiming to be competent at a job that requires an enormous amount of typing does have a ridiculous look (to me). Of course, I have worked with people working through a variety of disabilities, including dyslexia that make touch typing basically impossible. I'm not talking about them here. I'm talking about people who just refuse to make the effort for whatever reason. It's a bad look. PSA for newer players: Regardless of how you may feel about this subject, failing to demonstrate at least moderate typing skill in an interview is often a hard pass unless there's some explanation requiring an ADA accomodation.

throwaway6734 5y ago
Typing should be a very small amount of time of a developer's job even when pair programming. >A carpenter who claims to be experienced, but can't work a hammer efficiently would be ridiculed on a job site. It's just not remotely the same. How quickly and accurately a carpenter can hammer has a large impact on the quality and speed of the work, while typing should never be the bottleneck for a developer
KaiserPro 5y ago
> The keyboard is a tool. Yes, but one of many. > If you can't type, you're going to waste a lot of people's time and they may be too polite to say anything, but it's frustrating for everyone around you. I don't think in my career I have ever been alerted to anyone's typing speed being slow. Yes, I've heard endless noise about "the perfect keyboard" and the ins and outs of spring types and junk. But I've never noticed the output of someone because they type slowly. And to be honest, I really couldn't care. Can they code? can they keep to a deadline? are they nice to work with? if the answer to all three is yes, then I couldn't give a shit about how they type. > but can't work a hammer efficiently would be ridiculed on a job site. Only if they need to use a hammer effectively though. If they are laying veneer, carving, using a screwdriver like a sensible person, then a hammer is only rarely needed. This all smacks of gatekeeping to me.
- mgkimsal 5y ago
  > But I've never noticed the output of someone because they type slowly. I do, when I'm pairing with someone, or in any synchronous meeting environment. It may not effect the 'output' of delivered code (for a developer) but it can hinder their ability to pair effectively.
- lbayes 5y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to respond. I agree that some (maybe lots of?) people feel differently about this and of course, that's okay too. To be clear, I'm not saying anyone needs to type 120 WPM, I'm talking about a single finger on each hand, eyes down, hunting for the next key to press. Over the 20+ years of my career, I've been exposed to hundreds, maybe thousands of different folks doing different kinds of computer work. And yes, I agree that there are likely people who can kind of get the job done without being able to operate a keyboard efficiently. I also agree, that it helps a lot if they're nice to work with. But I have not yet met a single hacker who has demonstrable and deep knowledge of computers and the software that runs them who cannot type. I'm sure they must exist, and it wouldn't surprise me if Donald Knuth himself dropped into this thread to let me know that he hunts and pecks! I'm just saying, that I have not personally met or observed someone operating at the highest levels of this field who cannot type with a reasonable speed. [update] Almost forgot about Gatekeeping, Yes! Gatekeeping is an essential part of interviewing. In fact, that's the entire point. We interview people for roles with the specific intent of bringing on people who we believe (or at least hope) have higher competence and closing the gate to people who have lower competence. It's incredibly difficult work and it's not perfect and we have a lot of work to do, to make it better and more inclusive, but expecting competence in basic, role-relevant skills is unambiguously reasonable IMO.
josephg 5y ago
Yep. You can’t find the best programmer in the room by measuring everyone’s typing speed. But the person with the slowest typing speed in the room will rarely be the best programmer. Unless they have RSI or something, typing slowly is just a simple, low effort, obvious signal someone hasn’t spent many hours in front of a computer yet. Programming skill takes time.
Arch-TK 5y ago
Would you say I am being disrespectful because when I learned to type at the age of 12 I wasn't following any official guide and learned to touch type with only ~6 fingers? I type at around 120 WPM on average. Is it just the speed, or do I have to conform to some specific definition of "touch typing?"
- lbayes 5y ago
  Of course the particular technique is irrelevant (to me at least). I most enjoy working with people who care deeply about their work, and in my experience, those people are often (not always), people who also care about being efficient. In fact, if you're writing code at 120 wpm, maybe you've found a technique worth sharing and teaching! :-)
confidantlake 5y ago
But how do you know if someone has dyslexia or is just not making an effort? Or has wrist, shoulder, whatever problems? Unless the typing is hurting their output, who cares? And at that point it is not the typing speed that is the problem, but that their output is low.
- lbayes 5y ago
  To be clear, I'm not insinuating that anyone needs to type 120WPM. I'm talking about single-finger, head down, hunting for the location of a key. People with mild to moderate dyslexia (in my experience) and people with injuries are generally able to demonstrate competence with the keyboard and computer operation. I have dealt with moderate to severe RSI, and I have worked with a relatively large number of people dealing with RSI over the years and in my experience injuries don't mask operational competence. These behaviors look different from, "where was that key again?" Dyslexia often surfaces in a variety of early communications and over the years, working with some especially brilliant people challenged with dyslexia, I've learned to assume (early on) that typos are not a signal for carelessness, but potential indicators of dyslexia. I'm aware dyslexia is a spectrum, and at the extreme it can be fully debilitating for some activities. I haven't had much exposure to that cohort, but I would be happy to make reasonable accommodations and certainly would not consider it disqualifying. Thanks for bringing this up, I think it's helpful to be able to clarify these details!

by lbayes 5y ago

throwaway6734 5y ago

Typing should be a very small amount of time of a developer's job even when pair programming. >A carpenter who claims to be experienced, but can't work a hammer efficiently would be ridiculed on a job site. It's just not remotely the same. How quickly and accurately a carpenter can hammer has a large impact on the quality and speed of the work, while typing should never be the bottleneck for a developer

KaiserPro 5y ago

> The keyboard is a tool. Yes, but one of many. > If you can't type, you're going to waste a lot of people's time and they may be too polite to say anything, but it's frustrating for everyone around you. I don't think in my career I have ever been alerted to anyone's typing speed being slow. Yes, I've heard endless noise about "the perfect keyboard" and the ins and outs of spring types and junk. But I've never noticed the output of someone because they type slowly. And to be honest, I really couldn't care. Can they code? can they keep to a deadline? are they nice to work with? if the answer to all three is yes, then I couldn't give a shit about how they type. > but can't work a hammer efficiently would be ridiculed on a job site. Only if they need to use a hammer effectively though. If they are laying veneer, carving, using a screwdriver like a sensible person, then a hammer is only rarely needed. This all smacks of gatekeeping to me.

mgkimsal 5y ago
> But I've never noticed the output of someone because they type slowly. I do, when I'm pairing with someone, or in any synchronous meeting environment. It may not effect the 'output' of delivered code (for a developer) but it can hinder their ability to pair effectively.
lbayes 5y ago
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I agree that some (maybe lots of?) people feel differently about this and of course, that's okay too. To be clear, I'm not saying anyone needs to type 120 WPM, I'm talking about a single finger on each hand, eyes down, hunting for the next key to press. Over the 20+ years of my career, I've been exposed to hundreds, maybe thousands of different folks doing different kinds of computer work. And yes, I agree that there are likely people who can kind of get the job done without being able to operate a keyboard efficiently. I also agree, that it helps a lot if they're nice to work with. But I have not yet met a single hacker who has demonstrable and deep knowledge of computers and the software that runs them who cannot type. I'm sure they must exist, and it wouldn't surprise me if Donald Knuth himself dropped into this thread to let me know that he hunts and pecks! I'm just saying, that I have not personally met or observed someone operating at the highest levels of this field who cannot type with a reasonable speed. [update] Almost forgot about Gatekeeping, Yes! Gatekeeping is an essential part of interviewing. In fact, that's the entire point. We interview people for roles with the specific intent of bringing on people who we believe (or at least hope) have higher competence and closing the gate to people who have lower competence. It's incredibly difficult work and it's not perfect and we have a lot of work to do, to make it better and more inclusive, but expecting competence in basic, role-relevant skills is unambiguously reasonable IMO.

josephg 5y ago

Yep. You can’t find the best programmer in the room by measuring everyone’s typing speed. But the person with the slowest typing speed in the room will rarely be the best programmer. Unless they have RSI or something, typing slowly is just a simple, low effort, obvious signal someone hasn’t spent many hours in front of a computer yet. Programming skill takes time.

Arch-TK 5y ago

Would you say I am being disrespectful because when I learned to type at the age of 12 I wasn't following any official guide and learned to touch type with only ~6 fingers? I type at around 120 WPM on average. Is it just the speed, or do I have to conform to some specific definition of "touch typing?"

lbayes 5y ago
Of course the particular technique is irrelevant (to me at least). I most enjoy working with people who care deeply about their work, and in my experience, those people are often (not always), people who also care about being efficient. In fact, if you're writing code at 120 wpm, maybe you've found a technique worth sharing and teaching! :-)

confidantlake 5y ago

But how do you know if someone has dyslexia or is just not making an effort? Or has wrist, shoulder, whatever problems? Unless the typing is hurting their output, who cares? And at that point it is not the typing speed that is the problem, but that their output is low.

lbayes 5y ago
To be clear, I'm not insinuating that anyone needs to type 120WPM. I'm talking about single-finger, head down, hunting for the location of a key. People with mild to moderate dyslexia (in my experience) and people with injuries are generally able to demonstrate competence with the keyboard and computer operation. I have dealt with moderate to severe RSI, and I have worked with a relatively large number of people dealing with RSI over the years and in my experience injuries don't mask operational competence. These behaviors look different from, "where was that key again?" Dyslexia often surfaces in a variety of early communications and over the years, working with some especially brilliant people challenged with dyslexia, I've learned to assume (early on) that typos are not a signal for carelessness, but potential indicators of dyslexia. I'm aware dyslexia is a spectrum, and at the extreme it can be fully debilitating for some activities. I haven't had much exposure to that cohort, but I would be happy to make reasonable accommodations and certainly would not consider it disqualifying. Thanks for bringing this up, I think it's helpful to be able to clarify these details!