5 ms·

Do not use software that you cannot self host.

by swiley 5y ago

yoran 5y ago
Unfortunately that is very impractical. And way too broad of a measure. There are plenty of cloud-based services that have a business model that is based on providing that service and not on selling ads.
Hnrobert42 5y ago
You mean like this site?
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  Well done, Mr Gotcha. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
  - Hnrobert42 5y ago
    Haha. Fair. I do have a “gotcha” streak in me. But I also wanted to point out that you can’t boycott all software that is not self-hosted.
  - Redoubts 5y ago
    Seems particularly irrelevant to this thread.
dade_ 5y ago
I found this rule more practical (and I hold to it): Do not rely on software you cannot self host or holds your data hostage in a proprietary format. Data export must be a supported feature.
- kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
  Isn't data export a requirement for GDPR compliance? Many apps have this feature (exporting my data) and I usually take advantage of it.
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    The data does not have to be easely portable though, right? I.e. they can send human readable data that can't be directly translated back to its original form.
    - vincnetas 5y ago
      no, it must be computer readable. you cant print and mail your data export. When the processing is based on consent or a contract, the individual can also ask for you to return their personal data to them or transmit it to another company. This is known as the right to data portability. You should provide the data in a commonly used and machine-readable format. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/data-protection/data-protection-gdpr/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...
      - robin_reala 5y ago
        Yep, see this classic HN thread on Spotify and SongShift: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371
      - rightbyte 5y ago
        Oh nice!
- Kye 5y ago
  Google Takeout exports MBOX files for Gmail. I don't know how well they follow conventions supported by other MBOX-supporting tools though.
- mysterydip 5y ago
  One caveat with any online service is data export could be modified or removed in a future (forced) update with no practical recourse.
jojobas 5y ago
Can you host your own web search? (Or can you function without a web search?) Can you host your own auction platform for everything? News aggregator? Global GIS with updates?
- syshum 5y ago
  >>Can you host your own web search? (Or can you function without a web search?) Yes [1] [1]https://yacy.net/ https://yacy.net/ >>Can you host your own auction platform for everything? Seems odd to call this out, you must you ebay alot. I dont think I have every bought anything from ebay, i always found the "auction" format off putting, I prefer normal eCommerce. And there are PLENTY of self hosting eCommerce platforms, I am sure a few of them have a action function >>News aggregator? Yes, plent of those exist, I never use google for news, though I do not self host my own either but I could. Today I use Feedly alot, but I have run RSS readers, and other news aggregators in the past >>Global GIS with updates? Self Hosting does not mean you cut yourself off from the world of data, OpenStreetMap and other such service crowdsource data that you can then ingest into your selfhosted service. So yes I believe you can do this
- Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
  You absolutely can host all of OpenStreetMap yourself, and plenty of people do. https://switch2osm.org/ https://switch2osm.org/ has instructions on how to get it into a (queryable) Postgres database and serve maps from there, but there are many other possible workflows.
mission_failed 5y ago
Except Google and Microsoft have screwed up email so that self hosting is a never-ending game of 'who will they block today?' You can't run a business where the 2 companies that control the vast majority of email can block you for no reason, and absolutely no visibility that something is wrong until a customer directly contacts you that they are not receiving email (and how would they even know in most cases unless they knew a message should have come through?) Google was blocking signup emails to me from the 2nd largest telecommunications company in Australia at the time, and I ended up having to use my work address.
- swiley 5y ago
  I self host email and really only have this issue with hotmail users. IMO: email forms should reject addresses from hotmail domains since the mail probably won't get delivered anyway.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  If you have the right kind of business, you can tell your customers that it's Google and Microsoft's fault (“they want to keep people on Gmail so they keep blocking everyone else”) and suggest using another email address “while you get it sorted” – they might just do that. Of course, that is risking significant amounts of money out of your own pocket just for a stupid nerd turf war…https://xkcd.com/743/ https://xkcd.com/743/
  - mysterydip 5y ago
    Tried that before, doesn't matter. Customers say "my address works for everyone but you, it must be your problem. I'm not getting another address just for this, I'll use <competitor that works>."
- zaphar 5y ago
  This is overly simplistic. Frequently you get blocked because your IP block legitimately has a lot of people with poor computer hygiene who are a source of large amounts of spam which puts your IP on a reputation blocklist. There are legitimate and valid reasons for Google or Microsoft to be taking the actions that they do because email is an extremely hostile environment. Blaming them for that environment is silly. You may be a good actor but you are in a sea of really bad actors and it's non-trivial to figure out that you aren't one of those bad actors.

Do not use software that you cannot self host.

by swiley 5y ago

Do not use software that you cannot self host.

Unfortunately that is very impractical. And way too broad of a measure. There are plenty of cloud-based services that have a business model that is based on providing that service and not on selling ads.

Hnrobert42 5y ago

You mean like this site?

dane-pgp 5y ago
Well done, Mr Gotcha. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
- Hnrobert42 5y ago
  Haha. Fair. I do have a “gotcha” streak in me. But I also wanted to point out that you can’t boycott all software that is not self-hosted.
- Redoubts 5y ago
  Seems particularly irrelevant to this thread.

dade_ 5y ago

I found this rule more practical (and I hold to it): Do not rely on software you cannot self host or holds your data hostage in a proprietary format. Data export must be a supported feature.

kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
Isn't data export a requirement for GDPR compliance? Many apps have this feature (exporting my data) and I usually take advantage of it.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  The data does not have to be easely portable though, right? I.e. they can send human readable data that can't be directly translated back to its original form.
  - vincnetas 5y ago
    no, it must be computer readable. you cant print and mail your data export. When the processing is based on consent or a contract, the individual can also ask for you to return their personal data to them or transmit it to another company. This is known as the right to data portability. You should provide the data in a commonly used and machine-readable format. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/data-protection/data-protection-gdpr/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...
    - robin_reala 5y ago
      Yep, see this classic HN thread on Spotify and SongShift: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371
    - rightbyte 5y ago
      Oh nice!
Kye 5y ago
Google Takeout exports MBOX files for Gmail. I don't know how well they follow conventions supported by other MBOX-supporting tools though.
mysterydip 5y ago
One caveat with any online service is data export could be modified or removed in a future (forced) update with no practical recourse.

jojobas 5y ago

Can you host your own web search? (Or can you function without a web search?) Can you host your own auction platform for everything? News aggregator? Global GIS with updates?

syshum 5y ago
>>Can you host your own web search? (Or can you function without a web search?) Yes [1] [1]https://yacy.net/ https://yacy.net/ >>Can you host your own auction platform for everything? Seems odd to call this out, you must you ebay alot. I dont think I have every bought anything from ebay, i always found the "auction" format off putting, I prefer normal eCommerce. And there are PLENTY of self hosting eCommerce platforms, I am sure a few of them have a action function >>News aggregator? Yes, plent of those exist, I never use google for news, though I do not self host my own either but I could. Today I use Feedly alot, but I have run RSS readers, and other news aggregators in the past >>Global GIS with updates? Self Hosting does not mean you cut yourself off from the world of data, OpenStreetMap and other such service crowdsource data that you can then ingest into your selfhosted service. So yes I believe you can do this
Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
You absolutely can host all of OpenStreetMap yourself, and plenty of people do. https://switch2osm.org/ https://switch2osm.org/ has instructions on how to get it into a (queryable) Postgres database and serve maps from there, but there are many other possible workflows.

mission_failed 5y ago

Except Google and Microsoft have screwed up email so that self hosting is a never-ending game of 'who will they block today?' You can't run a business where the 2 companies that control the vast majority of email can block you for no reason, and absolutely no visibility that something is wrong until a customer directly contacts you that they are not receiving email (and how would they even know in most cases unless they knew a message should have come through?) Google was blocking signup emails to me from the 2nd largest telecommunications company in Australia at the time, and I ended up having to use my work address.

swiley 5y ago
I self host email and really only have this issue with hotmail users. IMO: email forms should reject addresses from hotmail domains since the mail probably won't get delivered anyway.
wizzwizz4 5y ago
If you have the right kind of business, you can tell your customers that it's Google and Microsoft's fault (“they want to keep people on Gmail so they keep blocking everyone else”) and suggest using another email address “while you get it sorted” – they might just do that. Of course, that is risking significant amounts of money out of your own pocket just for a stupid nerd turf war…https://xkcd.com/743/ https://xkcd.com/743/
- mysterydip 5y ago
  Tried that before, doesn't matter. Customers say "my address works for everyone but you, it must be your problem. I'm not getting another address just for this, I'll use <competitor that works>."
zaphar 5y ago
This is overly simplistic. Frequently you get blocked because your IP block legitimately has a lot of people with poor computer hygiene who are a source of large amounts of spam which puts your IP on a reputation blocklist. There are legitimate and valid reasons for Google or Microsoft to be taking the actions that they do because email is an extremely hostile environment. Blaming them for that environment is silly. You may be a good actor but you are in a sea of really bad actors and it's non-trivial to figure out that you aren't one of those bad actors.