3 ms·

When you apply for a promotion and they ask what your community service has been and you say you haven’t done any you’re not going to be in a good position if y

When you apply for a promotion and they ask what your community service has been and you say you haven’t done any you’re not going to be in a good position if you work at the same kind of institutions as most junior researchers.

dbcooper 5y ago
No one cares. It's publications, grants, and patents.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > No one cares. Why do think anyone does it then?
  - eesmith 5y ago
    - they see it as a personal duty / tit-for-tat / social contract since their own papers need to be be peer-reviewed - friendship with the editors, who have asked them to do the review - belief that providing peer review for a journal helps weigh the scales in their favor when publishing in the journal - or even be a path to becoming an editor for the journal - a way to keep up with the field - they love to criticize and nitpick, and peer-review comments are more likely to get a reaction than HN - desire to be a gatekeeper Those are the ones I've come up with on the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      Half of these are examples of 'people care' as I said though.
      - eesmith 5y ago
        ?? I don't see where you said "people care". While dbcooper's comment mentions "No one cares", I believe that's specifically that employers don't care. I believe that because dbcooper's comment was in response to your previous comment 'When you apply for a promotion and they ask ...' and your earlier 'If you're employed as a researcher...'. No one disagrees with the anodyne statement that "people care". I know people who are not employed (eg, retired) and do peer review even though there is no possible career advancement involved.
eesmith 5y ago
How would an employer verify that I'm telling the truth that I've peer reviewed 35 papers? Let's say I take 15 hours to review a paper, making detailed notes, and over multiple revisions. Which I've done. Let's say my co-worker reviews 10 papers taking one hour total, each with "looks good to me." How does my employer determined which is appropriate "community service"? You know how much @$%@*$% crap I get in my email asking to be a reviewer for junk journals from fields completely outside of mine? And that's in addition to requests mostly in my field for topics I am not qualified to peer review. How does my employer know I'm not inflating my "community service" through worthless volunteering?
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > How does my employer determined which is appropriate "community service"? Research is a small community. Within your field most people know each other and know who's contributing reviews and who isn't. If someone's being a jerk in the community everyone knows about it.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    How are people supposed to figure this out? I've been in my field for 20 years. I only know a handful of people who are contributing reviews. (Some have have told me told me directly, regarding a specific paper they reviewed. Some refuse to be anonymous in their reviews.) It's not just "being a jerk". There's a whole range of network effects which also confound the issue. Suppose I am the world experts on $SPECIALIZED_TOPIC, but it isn't a hot topic, and only three people in the world publish in the area. I'm a reviewer on all ten papers published on $TOPIC in a year. Suppose my co-worker works in $DEEP_AI_TOPIC, with thousands of papers published per month, and reviews 100 papers in a year. How does my employer weigh information about our respective peer review contributions? Or, suppose my co-worker and I are equally competent, but my co-worker was in grad school with the editor, so the editor is more likely to send papers to my co-worker. Also, the industry researchers I know tell me their respective employers have increasingly de-emphasized community service, including in conference organization, where there's no issue of anonymity.
Robotbeat 5y ago
Gotta wonder if it’s really community service to contribute to a toll-based system which actually restricts community access to scientific knowledge.

dbcooper 5y ago

No one cares. It's publications, grants, and patents.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> No one cares. Why do think anyone does it then?
- eesmith 5y ago
  - they see it as a personal duty / tit-for-tat / social contract since their own papers need to be be peer-reviewed - friendship with the editors, who have asked them to do the review - belief that providing peer review for a journal helps weigh the scales in their favor when publishing in the journal - or even be a path to becoming an editor for the journal - a way to keep up with the field - they love to criticize and nitpick, and peer-review comments are more likely to get a reaction than HN - desire to be a gatekeeper Those are the ones I've come up with on the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    Half of these are examples of 'people care' as I said though.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      ?? I don't see where you said "people care". While dbcooper's comment mentions "No one cares", I believe that's specifically that employers don't care. I believe that because dbcooper's comment was in response to your previous comment 'When you apply for a promotion and they ask ...' and your earlier 'If you're employed as a researcher...'. No one disagrees with the anodyne statement that "people care". I know people who are not employed (eg, retired) and do peer review even though there is no possible career advancement involved.

eesmith 5y ago

How would an employer verify that I'm telling the truth that I've peer reviewed 35 papers? Let's say I take 15 hours to review a paper, making detailed notes, and over multiple revisions. Which I've done. Let's say my co-worker reviews 10 papers taking one hour total, each with "looks good to me." How does my employer determined which is appropriate "community service"? You know how much @$%@*$% crap I get in my email asking to be a reviewer for junk journals from fields completely outside of mine? And that's in addition to requests mostly in my field for topics I am not qualified to peer review. How does my employer know I'm not inflating my "community service" through worthless volunteering?

chrisseaton 5y ago
> How does my employer determined which is appropriate "community service"? Research is a small community. Within your field most people know each other and know who's contributing reviews and who isn't. If someone's being a jerk in the community everyone knows about it.
- eesmith 5y ago
  How are people supposed to figure this out? I've been in my field for 20 years. I only know a handful of people who are contributing reviews. (Some have have told me told me directly, regarding a specific paper they reviewed. Some refuse to be anonymous in their reviews.) It's not just "being a jerk". There's a whole range of network effects which also confound the issue. Suppose I am the world experts on $SPECIALIZED_TOPIC, but it isn't a hot topic, and only three people in the world publish in the area. I'm a reviewer on all ten papers published on $TOPIC in a year. Suppose my co-worker works in $DEEP_AI_TOPIC, with thousands of papers published per month, and reviews 100 papers in a year. How does my employer weigh information about our respective peer review contributions? Or, suppose my co-worker and I are equally competent, but my co-worker was in grad school with the editor, so the editor is more likely to send papers to my co-worker. Also, the industry researchers I know tell me their respective employers have increasingly de-emphasized community service, including in conference organization, where there's no issue of anonymity.

Robotbeat 5y ago

Gotta wonder if it’s really community service to contribute to a toll-based system which actually restricts community access to scientific knowledge.