7 ms·

I think I finally "get" crypto. This article made me see the light. Crypto is about secession - a techno-anarchy. Decentralized governance with a self-managed c

by _xnmw 5y ago

I think I finally "get" crypto. This article made me see the light. Crypto is about secession - a techno-anarchy. Decentralized governance with a self-managed currency is effectively creating a new city-state. To be honest, the idea of the United States collapsing into a collection of Crypto City-States doesn't sound too bad. Better than a Mad Max scenario.

pharmakom 5y ago
If you want to really understand the true crypto believers (the earlier crowd, not the speculators) you must read Atlas Shrugged. In it, the heroes form their own society away from an (in their eyes) overreaching government, built on free exchange. In it they have a special bank vault that can never be looted, keeping their wealth safe, even in the event of the community being invaded. If it is forced open, the contents are destroyed. This is what Bitcoin (and crypto) can be to these people.
- pharmakom 5y ago
  Further background is The Sovereign Individual, which has some ugly white supremisist overtones, but also discusses crypto and a return to city states.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Could you quote or explain some of the things that you found to be overtones of white supremacy?
- dragonelite 5y ago
  Sounds like a dystopian shithole, capitalism has never really worked without state intervention, bailing out the capitalist/bankers asses or suppressing worker protests. Capitalism without minimal government control is nothing more then neo feudalism. Maybe that is what they want, the early crypto adopters have the biggest bags of all sorts of coins it protects them from the harsh living conditions such a neo feudal society will produce.
  - pharmakom 5y ago
    They would disagree that free markets lead to neo feudalism. A bit like socialists, they would claim their system has never really been tried. And in there defence, modern western economies have huge state involvement (including cronyism) so cannot be used as examples of a free market society.
- nivertech 5y ago
  Not that dissimilar to what some earlier colonialist charters did, and even countries like Canada are still doing today (with their point-based immigration system). Also similar to some modern micronation[1] enthusiasts, but they aren't as successful. The very earliest Zionists (Chaim Weizmann[2]) didn't wanted to build a Jewish state, they wanted an ideal/Utopian society with the elite people speaking perfect German. They acquired the charter from the British and were very picky about whom they allowed to immigrate. I.e. they planned to hand pick only up to tens of thousands candidates per year. Eventually they were pushed away by more pragmatic non-colonialist Zionists, who wanted to build (or restore/revive[3]) a normal Jewish nation-state, not the Utopian society. Something similar but on much larger scale happened in Rhodesia[4] (modern Zimbabwe). There are probably other examples of picky charter states that I missed. I remember years ago there were plans to found Crypto states in Central America / Caribbean region (Nicaragua, Puerto Rico). It's relatively easy to bribe the politicians there and get some of the country regions as a concession/charter/"Free Economic Zone". -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation [2] https://www.britannica.com/biography/Chaim-Weizmann https://www.britannica.com/biography/Chaim-Weizmann [3] there were plans to build a new Jewish states in Uganda or Madagascar, but the only place to restore/revive Jewish statehood was in the Land of Israel/Palestina. [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
7373737373 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom%E2%84%A2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom%E2%84%A2 describes exactly this scenario
q1w2 5y ago
While his article uses the word "city", I think this is entirely misleading. It would be more accurate to describe the unit of organization that it empowers as a "gang". ...an "organized semi-anonymous gang". ...and this is why it's very apt at developing organized crime. Now, to a certain degree, a "gang" that is scalable enough, profitable enough, and efficient enough - could indeed carve out a geographical territory. ...and from there, it's not that different from a city-state or nation. ...but that level of scalability does not yet exist. You could conceivably program into a massively scalable chain, things like a court system, a legislative system, a tax system, a land records system, etc... but we are very very far away from that. It's like predicting cyborgs because I can strap my phone to my arm while running. None of that level of scalability nor integration exists or is even theoretically solved. ...but there is one thing I will say. Some generation in the future might look back at our problems with "democracy" and the issues we have with one-man-one-vote, and laugh because the notion of humans having equal votes is a long gone memory. The crypto-hierarchy won't care about anything other than your "stake".
- wallacoloo 5y ago
  > but there is one thing I will say. Some generation in the future might look back at our problems with "democracy" and the issues we have with one-man-one-vote, and laugh because the notion of humans having equal votes is a long gone memory. The crypto-hierarchy won't care about anything other than your "stake". The CityDAO example Vitalik gives uses a one person/one vote system. Crypto’s not inherently about replacing democracy. A lot of it is about experimenting with varied rule systems that our existing democracies are otherwise incapable of changing. Like shaping our rules for the commons more explicitly in order to nudge things in a better direction. The article points out the misaligned incentives between land owners, residents, and the city collective: land owners want to restrict supply to make their land more valuable, but this restricts growth of the city. For many, crypto is the biggest hope not for building some anarcho utopia, but just for experimenting with tweaks that might better align the incentives for everyone within a city. e.g. put all the land in a city inside a trust and replace land ownership with a share of that trust: now land owners don’t want to increase their tiny plot by restricting supply: they want to increase the whole pie, which can better be done by investing instead of speculating. It’s hard to believe our cities today have all found their perfect form. Crypto gives you the tools to more rapidly diversify these systems, in the hope of finding better forms, faster.
serverholic 5y ago
Yep it has its origins in the cypherpunk movement which is anarchist. If you're interested you might want to check out projects like Aragon (https://aragon.org/ https://aragon.org/) to get a glimpse of how this type of thing could work. I imagine far in the future you'd be a member of one or more DAOs governed by some sort of smart-contract based system. These groups could use tools like Aragon or w/e to vote, hold court, etc.

by _xnmw 5y ago

pharmakom 5y ago

If you want to really understand the true crypto believers (the earlier crowd, not the speculators) you must read Atlas Shrugged. In it, the heroes form their own society away from an (in their eyes) overreaching government, built on free exchange. In it they have a special bank vault that can never be looted, keeping their wealth safe, even in the event of the community being invaded. If it is forced open, the contents are destroyed. This is what Bitcoin (and crypto) can be to these people.

pharmakom 5y ago
Further background is The Sovereign Individual, which has some ugly white supremisist overtones, but also discusses crypto and a return to city states.
- ericmay 5y ago
  Could you quote or explain some of the things that you found to be overtones of white supremacy?
dragonelite 5y ago
Sounds like a dystopian shithole, capitalism has never really worked without state intervention, bailing out the capitalist/bankers asses or suppressing worker protests. Capitalism without minimal government control is nothing more then neo feudalism. Maybe that is what they want, the early crypto adopters have the biggest bags of all sorts of coins it protects them from the harsh living conditions such a neo feudal society will produce.
- pharmakom 5y ago
  They would disagree that free markets lead to neo feudalism. A bit like socialists, they would claim their system has never really been tried. And in there defence, modern western economies have huge state involvement (including cronyism) so cannot be used as examples of a free market society.
nivertech 5y ago
Not that dissimilar to what some earlier colonialist charters did, and even countries like Canada are still doing today (with their point-based immigration system). Also similar to some modern micronation[1] enthusiasts, but they aren't as successful. The very earliest Zionists (Chaim Weizmann[2]) didn't wanted to build a Jewish state, they wanted an ideal/Utopian society with the elite people speaking perfect German. They acquired the charter from the British and were very picky about whom they allowed to immigrate. I.e. they planned to hand pick only up to tens of thousands candidates per year. Eventually they were pushed away by more pragmatic non-colonialist Zionists, who wanted to build (or restore/revive[3]) a normal Jewish nation-state, not the Utopian society. Something similar but on much larger scale happened in Rhodesia[4] (modern Zimbabwe). There are probably other examples of picky charter states that I missed. I remember years ago there were plans to found Crypto states in Central America / Caribbean region (Nicaragua, Puerto Rico). It's relatively easy to bribe the politicians there and get some of the country regions as a concession/charter/"Free Economic Zone". -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation [2] https://www.britannica.com/biography/Chaim-Weizmann https://www.britannica.com/biography/Chaim-Weizmann [3] there were plans to build a new Jewish states in Uganda or Madagascar, but the only place to restore/revive Jewish statehood was in the Land of Israel/Palestina. [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

7373737373 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom%E2%84%A2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom%E2%84%A2 describes exactly this scenario

q1w2 5y ago

While his article uses the word "city", I think this is entirely misleading. It would be more accurate to describe the unit of organization that it empowers as a "gang". ...an "organized semi-anonymous gang". ...and this is why it's very apt at developing organized crime. Now, to a certain degree, a "gang" that is scalable enough, profitable enough, and efficient enough - could indeed carve out a geographical territory. ...and from there, it's not that different from a city-state or nation. ...but that level of scalability does not yet exist. You could conceivably program into a massively scalable chain, things like a court system, a legislative system, a tax system, a land records system, etc... but we are very very far away from that. It's like predicting cyborgs because I can strap my phone to my arm while running. None of that level of scalability nor integration exists or is even theoretically solved. ...but there is one thing I will say. Some generation in the future might look back at our problems with "democracy" and the issues we have with one-man-one-vote, and laugh because the notion of humans having equal votes is a long gone memory. The crypto-hierarchy won't care about anything other than your "stake".

wallacoloo 5y ago
> but there is one thing I will say. Some generation in the future might look back at our problems with "democracy" and the issues we have with one-man-one-vote, and laugh because the notion of humans having equal votes is a long gone memory. The crypto-hierarchy won't care about anything other than your "stake". The CityDAO example Vitalik gives uses a one person/one vote system. Crypto’s not inherently about replacing democracy. A lot of it is about experimenting with varied rule systems that our existing democracies are otherwise incapable of changing. Like shaping our rules for the commons more explicitly in order to nudge things in a better direction. The article points out the misaligned incentives between land owners, residents, and the city collective: land owners want to restrict supply to make their land more valuable, but this restricts growth of the city. For many, crypto is the biggest hope not for building some anarcho utopia, but just for experimenting with tweaks that might better align the incentives for everyone within a city. e.g. put all the land in a city inside a trust and replace land ownership with a share of that trust: now land owners don’t want to increase their tiny plot by restricting supply: they want to increase the whole pie, which can better be done by investing instead of speculating. It’s hard to believe our cities today have all found their perfect form. Crypto gives you the tools to more rapidly diversify these systems, in the hope of finding better forms, faster.

serverholic 5y ago

Yep it has its origins in the cypherpunk movement which is anarchist. If you're interested you might want to check out projects like Aragon (https://aragon.org/ https://aragon.org/) to get a glimpse of how this type of thing could work. I imagine far in the future you'd be a member of one or more DAOs governed by some sort of smart-contract based system. These groups could use tools like Aragon or w/e to vote, hold court, etc.