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I know this is dangerous political territory, but my understanding is that neither would object reunification on their terms, and see themselves as the 'true' C

I know this is dangerous political territory, but my understanding is that neither would object reunification on their terms, and see themselves as the 'true' China [1]. The same was the case for Germany. Things just became so bad in eastern Germany that the government there accepted unconditional reunification in order to avoid total collapse. [1] not sure how true this is these days for Taiwan, but it definitely was the case historically.

garmaine 5y ago
Are you Taiwanese and/or live in Taiwan? To be sure I don't mean to imply that you can't have an opinion on it otherwise, but rather the public discussion online and in media regarding Taiwan is so insanely divorced from the reality on the ground that I find most people who are not in some way connected to Taiwan have a warped view of history and public opinion regarding this issue. A state of affairs which is very much on purpose due to mainland pressure and propaganda, and the one-China agreement which forces Taiwan and its allies to be mute regarding its status and the desires of its people in public discourse. Taiwan was never meaningfully part of China. The people who historically lived in, who presently make up 80% of the population, never considered themselves Chinese nationals. They have no shared identity with mainland China. They speak a different language, they eat different food, and they are descended from people who moved to Taiwan specifically because it was a self-ruled frontier land very far removed from Ming dynasty. When the Qing conquered, they had a hell of a time governing these very independent people--there were uprisings and unrest against the government almost every other year. The Japanese didn't fare much better, nor did the foreign military junta that took over in 1949. Never during any of this history or the present day did the Taiwanese people want to conquer China, peacefully "reunite" with China (how do you "reunite" when you were never united in the first place? It'd be like Afghanistan "reuniting" with the United States), or whatever other interpretation you might take from the one-China agreement. The foreign military dictator who ruled Taiwan with an iron fist during the martial law period did want to "reunify" with China. But neither this guy nor his army were Taiwanese, and his dream doesn't reflect in any way what the Taiwanese people wanted then or now. The one single time that Taiwan moved ever so slightly towards "reunification" was in the early part of this last decade where the then-ruling KMT nationalist party entered negotiations with China to setup some free trade agreements (think: NAFTA but for China + Taiwan), and the public fear over possible reunification was so large that the legislature building was occupied in protest, the ruling party utterly lost the following elections, and had its assets frozen under a corruption investigation. The success of the Taiwan protest would inspire the Hong Kong protestors a few years later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower_Student_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower_Student_Movement Taiwanese will riot in the streets if it'll prevent reunification. To be clear, the only person in Taiwan who ever truly wanted to re-conquer the mainland was the foreign dictator who did in fact used to rule China before the communists. When he died and martial law ended, China forced Taiwan into an agreement to keep his policy as the official stance or face invasion, because a continuing "civil war" fit their desired narrative better than Taiwanese independence. The Taiwanese have had their backs against the wall ever since.
- phreeza 5y ago
  Thanks for the detailed response, I see I was missing significant context, and my perception was wrong. I am surprised because I got this notion from some relatively conservative podcasts I listen to. I will be better informed in the future! In any case though, I think regardless of whether it can be called an invasion or a reunification, the point stands that there can be motivations for doing so that are not monetary (i.e. taking over the fabs) but have more to do with national identity and pride, and I think for the PRC this is such an issue, at least in part. Does that sound like a fair statement to you?
  - garmaine 5y ago
    Someone should do a case study on the propaganda surrounding this issue, because of I don't know of cases where the discussion regarding a political issue is so thoroughly controlled by one side of the discussion as is the case here. China not only controls their own narrative (Taiwan is a renegade province, etc.) but also has set up the opposing narrative as well (Taiwan is the last bastion of a free, democratic China in eternal conflict with the PRC) when the reality is that Taiwan is just Taiwan, an independent nation being bullied by its neighbor. But Taiwan leadership goes along with the one-China nonsense because what other choice do they have? They can't stand up to China on their own, as the US has implied it will only intervene in a conflict if China invades without provocation. So Taiwan's free and independent existence hinges on them doing everything possible to make sure that they do nothing that can possibly be construed as "provoking" China. But yeah, the PRC's reasons for wanting to invade Taiwan seem to be entirely around national identity, pride, and the personal legacy of Xi Jinping. I doubt there's much economic drive for doing so. And for what it's worth, the Taiwanese desire to NOT be part of China (PRC or otherwise) are also driven by a sense of national identity and pride. It was actually economic arguments which led to the cross-straight agreements which caused the downfall of the KMT.
- BelenusMordred 5y ago
  Are you Taiwanese and/or live in Taiwan?
  - 5y ago

garmaine 5y ago

Are you Taiwanese and/or live in Taiwan? To be sure I don't mean to imply that you can't have an opinion on it otherwise, but rather the public discussion online and in media regarding Taiwan is so insanely divorced from the reality on the ground that I find most people who are not in some way connected to Taiwan have a warped view of history and public opinion regarding this issue. A state of affairs which is very much on purpose due to mainland pressure and propaganda, and the one-China agreement which forces Taiwan and its allies to be mute regarding its status and the desires of its people in public discourse. Taiwan was never meaningfully part of China. The people who historically lived in, who presently make up 80% of the population, never considered themselves Chinese nationals. They have no shared identity with mainland China. They speak a different language, they eat different food, and they are descended from people who moved to Taiwan specifically because it was a self-ruled frontier land very far removed from Ming dynasty. When the Qing conquered, they had a hell of a time governing these very independent people--there were uprisings and unrest against the government almost every other year. The Japanese didn't fare much better, nor did the foreign military junta that took over in 1949. Never during any of this history or the present day did the Taiwanese people want to conquer China, peacefully "reunite" with China (how do you "reunite" when you were never united in the first place? It'd be like Afghanistan "reuniting" with the United States), or whatever other interpretation you might take from the one-China agreement. The foreign military dictator who ruled Taiwan with an iron fist during the martial law period did want to "reunify" with China. But neither this guy nor his army were Taiwanese, and his dream doesn't reflect in any way what the Taiwanese people wanted then or now. The one single time that Taiwan moved ever so slightly towards "reunification" was in the early part of this last decade where the then-ruling KMT nationalist party entered negotiations with China to setup some free trade agreements (think: NAFTA but for China + Taiwan), and the public fear over possible reunification was so large that the legislature building was occupied in protest, the ruling party utterly lost the following elections, and had its assets frozen under a corruption investigation. The success of the Taiwan protest would inspire the Hong Kong protestors a few years later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower_Student_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower_Student_Movement Taiwanese will riot in the streets if it'll prevent reunification. To be clear, the only person in Taiwan who ever truly wanted to re-conquer the mainland was the foreign dictator who did in fact used to rule China before the communists. When he died and martial law ended, China forced Taiwan into an agreement to keep his policy as the official stance or face invasion, because a continuing "civil war" fit their desired narrative better than Taiwanese independence. The Taiwanese have had their backs against the wall ever since.

phreeza 5y ago
Thanks for the detailed response, I see I was missing significant context, and my perception was wrong. I am surprised because I got this notion from some relatively conservative podcasts I listen to. I will be better informed in the future! In any case though, I think regardless of whether it can be called an invasion or a reunification, the point stands that there can be motivations for doing so that are not monetary (i.e. taking over the fabs) but have more to do with national identity and pride, and I think for the PRC this is such an issue, at least in part. Does that sound like a fair statement to you?
- garmaine 5y ago
  Someone should do a case study on the propaganda surrounding this issue, because of I don't know of cases where the discussion regarding a political issue is so thoroughly controlled by one side of the discussion as is the case here. China not only controls their own narrative (Taiwan is a renegade province, etc.) but also has set up the opposing narrative as well (Taiwan is the last bastion of a free, democratic China in eternal conflict with the PRC) when the reality is that Taiwan is just Taiwan, an independent nation being bullied by its neighbor. But Taiwan leadership goes along with the one-China nonsense because what other choice do they have? They can't stand up to China on their own, as the US has implied it will only intervene in a conflict if China invades without provocation. So Taiwan's free and independent existence hinges on them doing everything possible to make sure that they do nothing that can possibly be construed as "provoking" China. But yeah, the PRC's reasons for wanting to invade Taiwan seem to be entirely around national identity, pride, and the personal legacy of Xi Jinping. I doubt there's much economic drive for doing so. And for what it's worth, the Taiwanese desire to NOT be part of China (PRC or otherwise) are also driven by a sense of national identity and pride. It was actually economic arguments which led to the cross-straight agreements which caused the downfall of the KMT.
BelenusMordred 5y ago
Are you Taiwanese and/or live in Taiwan?
- 5y ago