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> They could also build the labs themselves, grow their food themselves, where does this end? Professors can't build labs but they already run journals. They j
by civilized 5y ago
> They could also build the labs themselves, grow their food themselves, where does this end?
Professors can't build labs but they already run journals. They just don't care to take control from companies like Elsevier because they don't care who can access their research beyond other academics who might cite them or their tenure committee. Even though the barrier is very small, and the benefit to the public large, there is a lack of incentive to go over it.
> Mind you, it's not like the researchers get a share of the profits, so your critique is very unfair.
Of course they don't profit. They just don't care if the public is being overcharged for access to research the public paid for. They don't care that they could change that by putting forth a modest effort. I don't see how that's an unfair assessment.
- swsieber 5y agoAs I understand the barrier is quite large requiring coordinated action or the death of many careers.
- civilized 5y agoNah. The editorial board of Nature could start their own open-access journal tomorrow, hosted on the arXiv or ResearchOne, and tell everyone that this is the real Nature they should submit to. And if most academics cared about the public having affordable access to research, they'd treat that new journal as the real Nature, impact factor and all. They just don't care. Not their wallets being squeezed. It's like, could Google change their domain name? Sure, it'd be a bit of a thing, but if they wanted to, they could and most people would follow them to the new domain. We know this is possible because some math journals where the board is passionate about open access have already done it.
- jltsiren 5y agoPrestige journals like Nature don't work in the same way as academic journals. Their editors are full-time employees who did a PhD and often had some postdoc experience before leaving the academia for the publishing industry.
- civilized 5y agoGood point. But the academic journals could switch at least.
- ethanbond 5y agoWhich part is modest effort? Creating an open access high impact journal, or choosing to take the funding hits associated with lower impact publishing? Neither strikes me as easy.
- civilized 5y agoSee my reply to swsieber.
- ethanbond 5y agoYes we agree that a few people at the top of the premier publishing orgs hold lots of power.
- civilized 5y agoAnd once they climb that ladder, academics who reach prestigious journal positions very consistently choose not to rock the boat, even though they hold all the cards. I think that says a lot about academia at large.
- ethanbond 5y agoYeah, in the same way that the existence of Murdochs, Sacklers, and Kochs says “a lot” about every person working in the retail or service industries. What you’re seeing is simply incentives and human beings’ universal responsiveness to them.
- civilized 5y agoIndeed, it says precisely what I said in the original post.
- crazy_horse 5y agoIt's hard to overstate how tired the entire argument is. Doctorow feels like tweetstorms are an acceptable means of getting communication across (yikes), so maybe some things are just unbridgable. HN sounds like cranks about this. In my podunk region 2 school I have access to all the journals I want, always have as a student. I rarely need that because it's easier to Google Scholar and then just grab the paper off of someone's site, which pretty mch everyone does these days. Some of the commenters here could have written a phd in the last decade about this topic but I don't think it's the massive stopper of progress that people think it is. Billions of dollars! Wish we didn't have to bust my ass to get a portion of that, but keep beating up on the academics.
- popcube 5y agoUsually people don't need to get research articles. this is differ to people on HN, usually people will not "do their research", and government will ask university offer science services. so they don't hurt public benefits.
- danaris 5y ago> They just don't care if the public is being overcharged for access to research the public paid for. I'm sorry, but this is just flat-out false. I personally know a number of academics who hate Elsevier, and one of the standard pieces of advice for students trying to get access to articles locked behind paywalls is to simply email the authors, because they will almost always send you a copy free of charge. Academics want their research to be free.