5 ms·

I don't disagree you had these problems. I'm just saying the market of developers in your pool is not very big. Most people are happy just learning a single pla

I don't disagree you had these problems. I'm just saying the market of developers in your pool is not very big. Most people are happy just learning a single platform, chip, etc and getting a job writing code against it. I get the allure of "if only every target spoke the language I Know.. then I could target all the things.." but in practice it's not really a problem

ncmncm 5y ago
The sheer quantity of things not even started because of the excess cost of targeting everything absolutely dwarfs the sum total of what is now built for this or that target. We have seen this dynamic play out over and over again, in the past six+ decades, going all the way back to FORTRAN. A standard target would multiply the size of this "market" many times over, generating additional demand for implementations throughout multiple industries. Balkanization has always been a debilitating tax on everyone, not excepting "market leaders" scrapping over the artificially reduced pie. Everyone made way more money after FORTRAN than before.
- enos_feedler 5y ago
  if the cost is attributed to "targeting everything" as you say, then wouldn't those things just get started by targeting one thing? Neither you or I can prove there are things not invented because of this, so nothing to debate here. The reason why pcwalton spent lots of effort jumping through hoops building a vector graphics library that targets lots of platforms is because we already know that vector graphics is something we had on a single platform. It is really hard for to imagine something not being invented/created at all because there isn't a single language that can express its computation everywhere simultaneously.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    That argument has been repeated over and over again, over decades, and is proven wildly off the mark the moment standardization enables the test, every time. Strangely, the fact never prevents it being trotted out again, every time.
    - enos_feedler 5y ago
      The only time standardization unlocks innovation is when agreement is core to the function of the system (TCP/IP, communication protocols, etc). If it's simply to create a common abstraction across similar things, then it won't unlock anything. It's simply a nice to have.
      - smoldesu 5y ago
        Why doesn't Apple consider their GPU to be a core function of their system, then?
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        Strangely, the fact still never prevents it being trotted out again, every time.
      - rowanG077 5y ago
        A GPU is not core to the function of modern personal computers? It's not 1990 anymore. Literally every single personal computer has a GPU. In fact it would be more apt to say that nowadays you buy a GPU that has sacrificed a small part of its transistor budget to include a CPU.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        The claim seems to be that the cited phenomenon applies only when interoperability between disjoint organizations is involved. But we see its wider applicability all the time, if only because education and similar infrastructure is exactly such an interoperation.
        enos_feedler 5y ago
        Yes its true. Which is exactly why javascript and html gave way to a broader programmer market. This creates lots of educational content and improves the educational experience. Especially bc standards evolve slow and don’t typically break. So you can find old resources that are still useful. That being said, it doesnt create innovation. This is why you have so many web frameworks. Innovation cant truly run wild so people reorganize whats inside the box already. To get outside you must connect compute with new sensors, io, etc. and in this case standardization doesnt matter initially

ncmncm 5y ago

The sheer quantity of things not even started because of the excess cost of targeting everything absolutely dwarfs the sum total of what is now built for this or that target. We have seen this dynamic play out over and over again, in the past six+ decades, going all the way back to FORTRAN. A standard target would multiply the size of this "market" many times over, generating additional demand for implementations throughout multiple industries. Balkanization has always been a debilitating tax on everyone, not excepting "market leaders" scrapping over the artificially reduced pie. Everyone made way more money after FORTRAN than before.

enos_feedler 5y ago
if the cost is attributed to "targeting everything" as you say, then wouldn't those things just get started by targeting one thing? Neither you or I can prove there are things not invented because of this, so nothing to debate here. The reason why pcwalton spent lots of effort jumping through hoops building a vector graphics library that targets lots of platforms is because we already know that vector graphics is something we had on a single platform. It is really hard for to imagine something not being invented/created at all because there isn't a single language that can express its computation everywhere simultaneously.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  That argument has been repeated over and over again, over decades, and is proven wildly off the mark the moment standardization enables the test, every time. Strangely, the fact never prevents it being trotted out again, every time.
  - enos_feedler 5y ago
    The only time standardization unlocks innovation is when agreement is core to the function of the system (TCP/IP, communication protocols, etc). If it's simply to create a common abstraction across similar things, then it won't unlock anything. It's simply a nice to have.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      Why doesn't Apple consider their GPU to be a core function of their system, then?
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Strangely, the fact still never prevents it being trotted out again, every time.
    - rowanG077 5y ago
      A GPU is not core to the function of modern personal computers? It's not 1990 anymore. Literally every single personal computer has a GPU. In fact it would be more apt to say that nowadays you buy a GPU that has sacrificed a small part of its transistor budget to include a CPU.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        The claim seems to be that the cited phenomenon applies only when interoperability between disjoint organizations is involved. But we see its wider applicability all the time, if only because education and similar infrastructure is exactly such an interoperation.
        enos_feedler 5y ago
        Yes its true. Which is exactly why javascript and html gave way to a broader programmer market. This creates lots of educational content and improves the educational experience. Especially bc standards evolve slow and don’t typically break. So you can find old resources that are still useful. That being said, it doesnt create innovation. This is why you have so many web frameworks. Innovation cant truly run wild so people reorganize whats inside the box already. To get outside you must connect compute with new sensors, io, etc. and in this case standardization doesnt matter initially