5 ms·

I really meant good experienced engineer. Such a person is worth much more than $150k/year, but you can't get much more cash as an employee in a startup (for g

by gleb 18y ago

I really meant good experienced engineer. Such a person is worth much more than $150k/year, but you can't get much more cash as an employee in a startup (for good reasons). Also, at that level you are getting at least 10% target bonus, and that's included in the number.

tptacek 18y ago
Really, really, really good engineers with keyword-compliant resumes walk in the door on Wall Street at 175k. I'm having a hard time with your numbers.
- gleb 18y ago
  Sure, but what does that have to do with SV startups?
  - tptacek 18y ago
    Valley engineers make less than Wall Street engineers --- COLA and scarcity. (Sorry, you asked.)
    - gleb 18y ago
      Cash compensation, yes. Total compensation -- I am arguing otherwise. SV engineers are asked to take more risk, and perhaps to sacrifice quality of life more. Thus higher expected compensation. That $175k in NY is probably $200k after bonus, so it makes sense that SV would be more. Another way to look at it is that new grad is now close to $100k. The experienced guy is easily 10 times more productive. But only gets 1.5 in salary. So, he also gets 5-10 times as much equity, and that's valued because historically it made good money.
      - hello_moto 18y ago
        New grad is making almost $100k? WHOA! How bad is the working environment on the valley?
      - jamiequint 18y ago
        $100k?? Are you speaking from direct experience, because none of the companies in the valley I know pay anywhere close to that.
menloparkbum 18y ago
Engineers do not make $150K a year at a startup. If you happen to run across this rare event, take the job, live on $40K and bank the rest (i.e. don't buy a BMW). Then, 6-18 months later when the company goes down in flames, you will have more than enough money to start your own company. If you aren't a founder, the best job to get at a startup is some sort of "VP" role after the series A round. These guys DO get paid $150-$175K a year, get the same number of options as the early stage engineers, and don't have to do as much work. As far as I can tell, their only role is to go to meetings with each other. That said, the mere existence of these employees signals almost certain doom for the startup. My apologies to the YC founders looking for employees, but being an early stage engineer (not a founder) at a startup is for suckers. You get paid paid $10-$50K less than you could at a big company, and your options are going to be worthless or worth far less than you could ever imagine. If you have an entrepreneurial bent, your best bet is to take the higher salary somewhere else and save money until you start your own thing.
- tptacek 18y ago
  This is true if your business plan is a Hail Mary pass for an acquisition by Google, Microsoft, or IBM. That's because the goals of the founders and the goals of the employees aren't aligned; it's broken in the same kind of way as Freakonomics says real estate agents are. I hope it's not true for startups that aren't drugged out on VC money. I don't know whether it is or it isn't. I can't tell, because I'm one of 3 founders, and the company is pretty much going to do what we want it to. Everyone says "yeah, but the work is better at a startup". I actually don't know if that's true --- I've been through a lot of startup bitch work (and wiring up yet another web form to MySQL is exactly that), and I've been tempted by some pretty awesome BigCo roles. Our work here is pretty awesome (for instance, we've got people paid to hack on gnuradio), but maybe you can get that same work at Motorola. This is a huge question and I don't have a good answer for it and I'm glad you brought it up. Outside the get-rich-quick schemes, what can we offer employees of real and lasting value? For a lot of us, it's training and reputation; but I want to keep the talent we're developing.
- webwright 18y ago
  "My apologies to the YC founders looking for employees, but being an early stage engineer (not a founder) at a startup is for suckers." This is a pretty broad statement that I'd disagree with. First of all, plenty of startups pay market rate (or close enough to it). Second (and way more important) most BigCo jobs are woefully bad at preparing you to spin up your own thing. Don't believe me? Come to Seattle sometime and watch how fast all of the Ex-Microsoft entrepreneurs hire "program managers" and VPs. Working in a small startup can teach you a lot about what works (and what doesn't) on a small team with limited resources. Third, it gets you into the game. You meet other folks who like startups who can be useful later (from co-founders to future hires to investors).

by gleb 18y ago

tptacek 18y ago

Really, really, really good engineers with keyword-compliant resumes walk in the door on Wall Street at 175k. I'm having a hard time with your numbers.

gleb 18y ago
Sure, but what does that have to do with SV startups?
- tptacek 18y ago
  Valley engineers make less than Wall Street engineers --- COLA and scarcity. (Sorry, you asked.)
  - gleb 18y ago
    Cash compensation, yes. Total compensation -- I am arguing otherwise. SV engineers are asked to take more risk, and perhaps to sacrifice quality of life more. Thus higher expected compensation. That $175k in NY is probably $200k after bonus, so it makes sense that SV would be more. Another way to look at it is that new grad is now close to $100k. The experienced guy is easily 10 times more productive. But only gets 1.5 in salary. So, he also gets 5-10 times as much equity, and that's valued because historically it made good money.
    - hello_moto 18y ago
      New grad is making almost $100k? WHOA! How bad is the working environment on the valley?
    - jamiequint 18y ago
      $100k?? Are you speaking from direct experience, because none of the companies in the valley I know pay anywhere close to that.

menloparkbum 18y ago

Engineers do not make $150K a year at a startup. If you happen to run across this rare event, take the job, live on $40K and bank the rest (i.e. don't buy a BMW). Then, 6-18 months later when the company goes down in flames, you will have more than enough money to start your own company. If you aren't a founder, the best job to get at a startup is some sort of "VP" role after the series A round. These guys DO get paid $150-$175K a year, get the same number of options as the early stage engineers, and don't have to do as much work. As far as I can tell, their only role is to go to meetings with each other. That said, the mere existence of these employees signals almost certain doom for the startup. My apologies to the YC founders looking for employees, but being an early stage engineer (not a founder) at a startup is for suckers. You get paid paid $10-$50K less than you could at a big company, and your options are going to be worthless or worth far less than you could ever imagine. If you have an entrepreneurial bent, your best bet is to take the higher salary somewhere else and save money until you start your own thing.

tptacek 18y ago
This is true if your business plan is a Hail Mary pass for an acquisition by Google, Microsoft, or IBM. That's because the goals of the founders and the goals of the employees aren't aligned; it's broken in the same kind of way as Freakonomics says real estate agents are. I hope it's not true for startups that aren't drugged out on VC money. I don't know whether it is or it isn't. I can't tell, because I'm one of 3 founders, and the company is pretty much going to do what we want it to. Everyone says "yeah, but the work is better at a startup". I actually don't know if that's true --- I've been through a lot of startup bitch work (and wiring up yet another web form to MySQL is exactly that), and I've been tempted by some pretty awesome BigCo roles. Our work here is pretty awesome (for instance, we've got people paid to hack on gnuradio), but maybe you can get that same work at Motorola. This is a huge question and I don't have a good answer for it and I'm glad you brought it up. Outside the get-rich-quick schemes, what can we offer employees of real and lasting value? For a lot of us, it's training and reputation; but I want to keep the talent we're developing.
webwright 18y ago
"My apologies to the YC founders looking for employees, but being an early stage engineer (not a founder) at a startup is for suckers." This is a pretty broad statement that I'd disagree with. First of all, plenty of startups pay market rate (or close enough to it). Second (and way more important) most BigCo jobs are woefully bad at preparing you to spin up your own thing. Don't believe me? Come to Seattle sometime and watch how fast all of the Ex-Microsoft entrepreneurs hire "program managers" and VPs. Working in a small startup can teach you a lot about what works (and what doesn't) on a small team with limited resources. Third, it gets you into the game. You meet other folks who like startups who can be useful later (from co-founders to future hires to investors).