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I guess the problem with plot on video games is the sequencing. Some of the most impactful stories I've experienced in games have been more environmental story

I guess the problem with plot on video games is the sequencing. Some of the most impactful stories I've experienced in games have been more environmental storytelling than plot based. That is, the game expects me to find the overall narrative and story in my own time, usually because the story beats have happened already before my character even existed, and I'm trying to find where the current gameplay fits into it, e.g. Outer Wilds. If you want a normal "movie like" story, you more often have to Railroad your player along certain paths, or tack it on in between gameplay. Games like (the finale of) Braid do a good job of showing how gameplay and narrative can coexist in a way that films can't do, and that's one of the lessons for me. Plot in the movie sense within games can be a fun way to mash gameplay and story together, buy it isn't superior in telling the story. You need to do something different in games to tell a story in a way where games are stronger stronger film, for me, usually slow paced games with environmental storytelling, or games that use your feelings of being the main character to mess with you, e.g. spec ops the line. YOU chose to kill people not the protag of the film you're watching. I guess my point is, some games use video game only devices to enhance the impact of their story in a way that only games can, where the games that try to take on films using the tools of films won't be able to.match up with films.

everdrive 5y ago
This is something which didn't come through in my original post, but I feel one of the major problems here is that people are trying to compare video games to other mediums such as theatre, movies, and books. In other words, video games are an art form which is different enough that direct comparisons to other art forms may be misleading. Now I realize that we are talking about the general quality of plot in games, and not the wider debate regarding whether video games constitute art. That said, imagine the complaint that music is not art because it lacks a proper plot. Video games have aspects of other mediums, but the interactive nature of games means that they will never really be directly comparable. For example, in film school you might study aspects of film which are somewhat oblique to the quality of the actual storytelling in the film. Such as: cinematography, and the framing of characters in the shot. Video games have analogous things, such as level design, game design, etc. A famous example is how the first level of Super Mario Bros. teaches you that mushrooms are beneficial, by making the player's first interaction with one mostly unavoidable. Modern games have more complex game designs, and of course these designs represent a complex communication between the game creators and the players. A lot of nuance an information is conveyed this way, and it can potentially amount to art. Much like the art of cinematography cannot exist in books, the art of game design cannot exist in other mediums. Video games can also teach you things which movies and books cannot, (at least potentially) and this can be performed via game design. For example, when I was a child, people would exclaim "life's not a video game!" I heard this quite a bit, and I believe most people meant: the things you do have consequences, and you won't get very many second chances. Now this is frankly not really correct. Yes, the things you do have consequences, but almost everyone gets multiple second chances throughout their life. For example, if I fail at one task in a workplace, I usually get multiple chances to improve and correct my error. Even if I fail overall at a job, I will likely have future chances to prove myself at other jobs. Some mistakes can be fatal, of course, but for most of the actions I take, I can plan on success by trial and error, repetition, and iteration. In other words, exactly like a video game. Interestingly, it was video games which first taught me this. I had a friend who by all accounts was objectively not as talented at video games than I was. We'd play together, and I'd best him at nearly everything we touched. However one day he wanted to take on a challenge in a game which I felt was above my skill level. I was certain he'd never be able to succeed, because I was certain I could never succeed. But, he had something I didn't at the time: persistence. He kept trying and failing, and trying again. He never became discouraged or emotionally frustrated, and slowly he iterated on his failure and eventually succeeded. (To be clear here, when I say "iterate on failure," I simply mean to attempt a task, fail at it, and attempt it slightly better the next time.) I learned a very important lesson that day, and have been re-learning it ever since: part of success is persistence, and things which seem impossible are often simply daunting. Later in life, Dark Souls and other From Software games reinforced these lessons, and of course much more importantly, I applied these lessons to my everyday life and learned not to fear failure, and to iterate on failure until it became success. I bring this up specifically because I remember years ago reading an interview with a celebrity who felt that video games could not be art. I believe it was Roger Ebert, but I'm not sure. In either case, the argument was made that art teaches you something, something about human nature, something about being a person. It's possible I'm misremembering the argument, (I can't find it online) but my point is the same. Video games taught me something about being a person which other mediums failed to teach me.
SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
Outer Wilds was what I was thinking of when I read this article. Not because of the article’s content, but in contrast of it. It was an excellent game that doesn’t fit into a lot of the authors advice. It was complex, and you can miss a lot of it, but it nails and authentic tone that seems to be available on indie titles exclusively. Top Five of all time for me.
- JauntyHatAngle 5y ago
  Absolutely, one of my favourites easily. I feel it gave me room to think, and spoke to me in areas I usually don't engage. Themes of accepting you can't halt the end, no matter how hard you try and all the work you put in, and ultimately we all end up alone, but with the memories of others as parts of ourselves, as we enter the unknown. Just my readings, but the point is it hit me in a way other media hasn't. Not better or worse, but unique and different because games haven't quite found how best to use the medium for the possibilities in storytelling.
- ljm 5y ago
  I was thinking of Sunless Seas and Sunless Skies. It's not so much that they have a story, because there's more to it than that, and the lore seeps through every aspect of the games. I have never played a game that does cosmic horror so damn well (because Lovecraftian games are about 99% disappointing, or cliche rip offs of like two Lovecraft stories). I prefer Sunless Skies, but both of them look gorgeous, have amazing sound design, and while abundant with moments of terror they are a real feast for the imagination. It's the writing that ties it all together, makes it special.
taeric 5y ago
I have had a hard time forgetting the scene in Ico where you are separated from your companion. Such a simple scripting, but completely hooked me. Which, I think, makes your point. The setting is basically drowning you in that game. And you are a bit player that does not impact any world, per se. At least, if you did, you aren't aware of it.

everdrive 5y ago

This is something which didn't come through in my original post, but I feel one of the major problems here is that people are trying to compare video games to other mediums such as theatre, movies, and books. In other words, video games are an art form which is different enough that direct comparisons to other art forms may be misleading. Now I realize that we are talking about the general quality of plot in games, and not the wider debate regarding whether video games constitute art. That said, imagine the complaint that music is not art because it lacks a proper plot. Video games have aspects of other mediums, but the interactive nature of games means that they will never really be directly comparable. For example, in film school you might study aspects of film which are somewhat oblique to the quality of the actual storytelling in the film. Such as: cinematography, and the framing of characters in the shot. Video games have analogous things, such as level design, game design, etc. A famous example is how the first level of Super Mario Bros. teaches you that mushrooms are beneficial, by making the player's first interaction with one mostly unavoidable. Modern games have more complex game designs, and of course these designs represent a complex communication between the game creators and the players. A lot of nuance an information is conveyed this way, and it can potentially amount to art. Much like the art of cinematography cannot exist in books, the art of game design cannot exist in other mediums. Video games can also teach you things which movies and books cannot, (at least potentially) and this can be performed via game design. For example, when I was a child, people would exclaim "life's not a video game!" I heard this quite a bit, and I believe most people meant: the things you do have consequences, and you won't get very many second chances. Now this is frankly not really correct. Yes, the things you do have consequences, but almost everyone gets multiple second chances throughout their life. For example, if I fail at one task in a workplace, I usually get multiple chances to improve and correct my error. Even if I fail overall at a job, I will likely have future chances to prove myself at other jobs. Some mistakes can be fatal, of course, but for most of the actions I take, I can plan on success by trial and error, repetition, and iteration. In other words, exactly like a video game. Interestingly, it was video games which first taught me this. I had a friend who by all accounts was objectively not as talented at video games than I was. We'd play together, and I'd best him at nearly everything we touched. However one day he wanted to take on a challenge in a game which I felt was above my skill level. I was certain he'd never be able to succeed, because I was certain I could never succeed. But, he had something I didn't at the time: persistence. He kept trying and failing, and trying again. He never became discouraged or emotionally frustrated, and slowly he iterated on his failure and eventually succeeded. (To be clear here, when I say "iterate on failure," I simply mean to attempt a task, fail at it, and attempt it slightly better the next time.) I learned a very important lesson that day, and have been re-learning it ever since: part of success is persistence, and things which seem impossible are often simply daunting. Later in life, Dark Souls and other From Software games reinforced these lessons, and of course much more importantly, I applied these lessons to my everyday life and learned not to fear failure, and to iterate on failure until it became success. I bring this up specifically because I remember years ago reading an interview with a celebrity who felt that video games could not be art. I believe it was Roger Ebert, but I'm not sure. In either case, the argument was made that art teaches you something, something about human nature, something about being a person. It's possible I'm misremembering the argument, (I can't find it online) but my point is the same. Video games taught me something about being a person which other mediums failed to teach me.

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago

Outer Wilds was what I was thinking of when I read this article. Not because of the article’s content, but in contrast of it. It was an excellent game that doesn’t fit into a lot of the authors advice. It was complex, and you can miss a lot of it, but it nails and authentic tone that seems to be available on indie titles exclusively. Top Five of all time for me.

JauntyHatAngle 5y ago
Absolutely, one of my favourites easily. I feel it gave me room to think, and spoke to me in areas I usually don't engage. Themes of accepting you can't halt the end, no matter how hard you try and all the work you put in, and ultimately we all end up alone, but with the memories of others as parts of ourselves, as we enter the unknown. Just my readings, but the point is it hit me in a way other media hasn't. Not better or worse, but unique and different because games haven't quite found how best to use the medium for the possibilities in storytelling.
ljm 5y ago
I was thinking of Sunless Seas and Sunless Skies. It's not so much that they have a story, because there's more to it than that, and the lore seeps through every aspect of the games. I have never played a game that does cosmic horror so damn well (because Lovecraftian games are about 99% disappointing, or cliche rip offs of like two Lovecraft stories). I prefer Sunless Skies, but both of them look gorgeous, have amazing sound design, and while abundant with moments of terror they are a real feast for the imagination. It's the writing that ties it all together, makes it special.

taeric 5y ago

I have had a hard time forgetting the scene in Ico where you are separated from your companion. Such a simple scripting, but completely hooked me. Which, I think, makes your point. The setting is basically drowning you in that game. And you are a bit player that does not impact any world, per se. At least, if you did, you aren't aware of it.