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Whether you like Ableton Live or not relative to other options is a matter of preference, but regardless, the folks who run Ableton are pretty cool: - run by r

Whether you like Ableton Live or not relative to other options is a matter of preference, but regardless, the folks who run Ableton are pretty cool: - run by real musicians who play shows, it came out of a scratched personal itch - so far, good new owners of Cycling 74, the bug squash numbers in the last couple of releases were stellar - totally hacker friendly, they know people release disassembled Python code for control surfaces, and basically said "we can't support individual users doing this, but we know it's out there and won't do anything to stop it" (this was what actually got me on the bus!) - really good educational outreach initiatives, and they give away a very capable light version for peanuts (or free with many controllers) I find their prices high, all things considered, but am happy to be a long time customer, and as a serious musician musician (university educated, etc.), I think it's great that it has become such a gateway to appreciation of instrumental music by making music creation a more accessible hobby. And the fact that I can script the heck out of such a full featured commercial product in Scheme by writing a Max/MSP external is fantastic (plug, I wrote Scheme For Max, which allows you to run lisp in your Ableton...)

ushakov 5y ago
I think it’s also important to mention that Max costs $399 extra
- iainctduncan 5y ago
  Correction, Max for Live costs $200 extra. Ableton Suite costs more, as does owning both standalone Max and Max for Live, but you do not need the $400 Max to script Live with Max, you just need Max for Live. And given how much it brings to the table and how many community and built in devices you get for that, I would argue it's very reasonable compared to other pro audio software. (Mind you, not incredible like Reaper, Valhalla DSP or Klanghelm's prices, but very fair compared to many others)
  - ushakov 5y ago
    yeah i agree with that, but i think Ableton prices are still bit ridiculous given they make a new version every year or so
    - iainctduncan 5y ago
      They are high, I don't argue that. I don't think they are ridiculous, given the quality of the product and size of the market (it's not word processing...), the fact that they are independent, and they way they run their company (which, from what I've heard, is a very nice place to work). It is extremely stable with very very few bugs, and running an independent software company that way requires high margins. (I'm a software mergers and acquisitions consultant, so I get to talk to buyers about this all the time.) Personally, I'm happy to pay a premium to support the way the company is run, I don't think for a second they would be as hacker friendly if they got bought by one of the big PE fund owned media conglomerates. But you're not wrong, they are pricy. If people are on a tight budget (and I spent many years being that musician 20 years ago) I would tell them to buy Reaper and either standalone Max ($8/mnth, cheaper for students) or use Pure Data (open source).
      - ushakov 5y ago
        One thing to consider though is that Ableton is a Software product, so it can’t be resold unlike an actual device
        eclipxe 5y ago
        This is not true. You can resale Ableton licenses. In fact a lot of music software allows sale of software licenses.
        Slow_Hand 5y ago
        Can confirm. Quite a few pieces of expensive music software allow you to transfer ownership of licenses. I just bought a used Maschine+ hardware unit and the seller included a printout with confirmation of ownership for the software component along with the required serial numbers for the new owner (me).
tomduncalf 5y ago
Nice work on Scheme for Max! Much less impressive, but I spent a bit of time building a simple M4L device a while back using Typescript, and put some effort into figuring out how to make TS play nice(r) with the M4L API (the JS support in Max is pretty basic). I never got around to splitting it out into its own reusable module but it might be of interest to anyone interested in playing with scripting Ableton from Max, but not interested in learning Max’s visual programming paradigm: https://github.com/tomduncalf/livefader https://github.com/tomduncalf/livefader Would be interested to know how Ableton’s scriptability compares to some other DAWs… I know Tracktion and Bitwig have some degree of JS support, and Reaper has its own scripting language. Personally I’d love it Ableton made the Python API etc. a bit more official but I can of course understand why they don’t.
- iainctduncan 5y ago
  thanks! :-)
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  Ardour uses Lua as its scripting language. But then of course, it's also 100% open source, so you don't have to rely on what is made accessible via the scripting language. You can just change the actual source. Of course, some people don't see things that way: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/is-open-source-a-diversion-from-what-users-really-want/102665 https://discourse.ardour.org/t/is-open-source-a-diversion-fr...
- gavinray 5y ago
  > "Would be interested to know how Ableton’s scriptability compares to some other DAWs… I know Tracktion and Bitwig have some degree of JS support, and Reaper has its own scripting language. Personally I’d love it Ableton made the Python API etc. a bit more official but I can of course understand why they don’t." There's nothing that really holds a candle to REAPER's scripting API. For interpreted scripts, it supports Lua/Python/Eel (simple C-like language): https://mespotin.uber.space/Ultraschall/Reaper_Api_Documentation.html https://mespotin.uber.space/Ultraschall/Reaper_Api_Documenta... It also has a C/C++ native extension API, and a community Rust API. I have translated the API into C# and D. https://github.com/justinfrankel/reaper-sdk/blob/main/sdk/reaper_plugin_functions.h https://github.com/justinfrankel/reaper-sdk/blob/main/sdk/re... https://github.com/helgoboss/reaper-rs https://github.com/helgoboss/reaper-rs The total number of (stock) API functions is ~1,000. Some core parts of REAPER itself like it's piano roll and media browser are written using it's own plugin API. It supports making audio plugins with GUI's that hot-reload and have a realtime variable + debugger panel using the Eel language (called "JSFX"). Many of the user-created JSFX are better than paid plugins I've used. https://www.reaper.fm/sdk/js/js.php https://www.reaper.fm/sdk/js/js.php The scripting community is very large and active. https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3 https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3 It has an in-DAW IDE with intellisense. There are multiple community GUI frameworks, including bindings to ImGui, etc. https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2416501 https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2416501 https://github.com/cfillion/reaimgui https://github.com/cfillion/reaimgui Really blows your mind. (I am familiar with the docs for Tracktion's JS API, know about Studio One's hush-hush JS scripting, Renoise's Lua scripting, Ardour's scripting, etc.)

ushakov 5y ago

I think it’s also important to mention that Max costs $399 extra

iainctduncan 5y ago
Correction, Max for Live costs $200 extra. Ableton Suite costs more, as does owning both standalone Max and Max for Live, but you do not need the $400 Max to script Live with Max, you just need Max for Live. And given how much it brings to the table and how many community and built in devices you get for that, I would argue it's very reasonable compared to other pro audio software. (Mind you, not incredible like Reaper, Valhalla DSP or Klanghelm's prices, but very fair compared to many others)
- ushakov 5y ago
  yeah i agree with that, but i think Ableton prices are still bit ridiculous given they make a new version every year or so
  - iainctduncan 5y ago
    They are high, I don't argue that. I don't think they are ridiculous, given the quality of the product and size of the market (it's not word processing...), the fact that they are independent, and they way they run their company (which, from what I've heard, is a very nice place to work). It is extremely stable with very very few bugs, and running an independent software company that way requires high margins. (I'm a software mergers and acquisitions consultant, so I get to talk to buyers about this all the time.) Personally, I'm happy to pay a premium to support the way the company is run, I don't think for a second they would be as hacker friendly if they got bought by one of the big PE fund owned media conglomerates. But you're not wrong, they are pricy. If people are on a tight budget (and I spent many years being that musician 20 years ago) I would tell them to buy Reaper and either standalone Max ($8/mnth, cheaper for students) or use Pure Data (open source).
    - ushakov 5y ago
      One thing to consider though is that Ableton is a Software product, so it can’t be resold unlike an actual device
      - eclipxe 5y ago
        This is not true. You can resale Ableton licenses. In fact a lot of music software allows sale of software licenses.
        Slow_Hand 5y ago
        Can confirm. Quite a few pieces of expensive music software allow you to transfer ownership of licenses. I just bought a used Maschine+ hardware unit and the seller included a printout with confirmation of ownership for the software component along with the required serial numbers for the new owner (me).

tomduncalf 5y ago

Nice work on Scheme for Max! Much less impressive, but I spent a bit of time building a simple M4L device a while back using Typescript, and put some effort into figuring out how to make TS play nice(r) with the M4L API (the JS support in Max is pretty basic). I never got around to splitting it out into its own reusable module but it might be of interest to anyone interested in playing with scripting Ableton from Max, but not interested in learning Max’s visual programming paradigm: https://github.com/tomduncalf/livefader https://github.com/tomduncalf/livefader Would be interested to know how Ableton’s scriptability compares to some other DAWs… I know Tracktion and Bitwig have some degree of JS support, and Reaper has its own scripting language. Personally I’d love it Ableton made the Python API etc. a bit more official but I can of course understand why they don’t.

iainctduncan 5y ago
thanks! :-)
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
Ardour uses Lua as its scripting language. But then of course, it's also 100% open source, so you don't have to rely on what is made accessible via the scripting language. You can just change the actual source. Of course, some people don't see things that way: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/is-open-source-a-diversion-from-what-users-really-want/102665 https://discourse.ardour.org/t/is-open-source-a-diversion-fr...
gavinray 5y ago
> "Would be interested to know how Ableton’s scriptability compares to some other DAWs… I know Tracktion and Bitwig have some degree of JS support, and Reaper has its own scripting language. Personally I’d love it Ableton made the Python API etc. a bit more official but I can of course understand why they don’t." There's nothing that really holds a candle to REAPER's scripting API. For interpreted scripts, it supports Lua/Python/Eel (simple C-like language): https://mespotin.uber.space/Ultraschall/Reaper_Api_Documentation.html https://mespotin.uber.space/Ultraschall/Reaper_Api_Documenta... It also has a C/C++ native extension API, and a community Rust API. I have translated the API into C# and D. https://github.com/justinfrankel/reaper-sdk/blob/main/sdk/reaper_plugin_functions.h https://github.com/justinfrankel/reaper-sdk/blob/main/sdk/re... https://github.com/helgoboss/reaper-rs https://github.com/helgoboss/reaper-rs The total number of (stock) API functions is ~1,000. Some core parts of REAPER itself like it's piano roll and media browser are written using it's own plugin API. It supports making audio plugins with GUI's that hot-reload and have a realtime variable + debugger panel using the Eel language (called "JSFX"). Many of the user-created JSFX are better than paid plugins I've used. https://www.reaper.fm/sdk/js/js.php https://www.reaper.fm/sdk/js/js.php The scripting community is very large and active. https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3 https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3 It has an in-DAW IDE with intellisense. There are multiple community GUI frameworks, including bindings to ImGui, etc. https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2416501 https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2416501 https://github.com/cfillion/reaimgui https://github.com/cfillion/reaimgui Really blows your mind. (I am familiar with the docs for Tracktion's JS API, know about Studio One's hush-hush JS scripting, Renoise's Lua scripting, Ardour's scripting, etc.)