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On the contrary, doesn't it highlight that the PHP development ecosystem values simplicity? That is, a simple application (which this is) can be contained withi

On the contrary, doesn't it highlight that the PHP development ecosystem values simplicity? That is, a simple application (which this is) can be contained within one file, rather than something requiring several folders, dependencies, and an 'init' command? I don't understand your criticism and I suggest you might not either.

keymone 5y ago
The irony of thinking files and folders are too much for simple app and also praising a feature that is in direct relation to php’s MO of conflating codebase folder structure with requests’ path. Edit: this reminds me, I was like this too at the beginning of my dev career, I also was completely in favor of this supposed “simplicity” of php, only much later, thanks to hickey’s nice talk I realized that I was confusing simplicity with ease. https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/ https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/
- deleted 5y ago
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- hn_throwaway_69 5y ago
  Sorry, I don't understand your first point, even after reading it several times. I think I might have inferred what you meant by looking at the second (edited in) point, but I'm not sure. Are you suggesting that it is bad that PHP applications often have a request path that relates to the folder structure? In other words, are you suggesting that simplicity means an application should not have a request path that relates to the folder structure? To give an example, are you saying it's a bad thing that example.com/profile/ loads /profile/index.php, rather than passing /profile through a single controller function to identify what code should be responsible for handling it? The first approach actually seems pretty straightforward paradigm and it's what most new programmers would expect. Adopting a MVC/routes method is more complex and arguably overkill for a simple application. If that is what you are contending, it should be said that PHP does not require this approach. Although it is often a preferred approach, because it doesn't depend on additional web server configuration.
  - keymone 5y ago
    I’m not suggesting, I’m saying that conflation is mother of confusion. Conflating request path with file path is not a great idea, especially for new developers that get a mental model of how web apps work that is completely irrelevant for the rest of their careers.
    - hn_throwaway_69 5y ago
      There's plenty of large PHP projects that adopt this paradigm. Is it really fair to say it will be completely irrelevant for the rest of their careers? Also, let's not lose sight that this arises in a context of criticism of the model adopted for programming a simple form. This is just a simple one page form. More complex or abstract paradigms or design patterns is overkill.
heavenlyblue 5y ago
You replace your “init” command with some VIMming of your nginx configuration. The next on the line is that PHP doesn’t even need anything like version control because you can just copy files over SFTP. PS: if your project is simple enough to fit in a single file I would argue that most of the time you may use absolutely anything (including a Google Sheet) and you would be equally happy with the results.

keymone 5y ago

The irony of thinking files and folders are too much for simple app and also praising a feature that is in direct relation to php’s MO of conflating codebase folder structure with requests’ path. Edit: this reminds me, I was like this too at the beginning of my dev career, I also was completely in favor of this supposed “simplicity” of php, only much later, thanks to hickey’s nice talk I realized that I was confusing simplicity with ease. https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/ https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/

deleted 5y ago
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hn_throwaway_69 5y ago
Sorry, I don't understand your first point, even after reading it several times. I think I might have inferred what you meant by looking at the second (edited in) point, but I'm not sure. Are you suggesting that it is bad that PHP applications often have a request path that relates to the folder structure? In other words, are you suggesting that simplicity means an application should not have a request path that relates to the folder structure? To give an example, are you saying it's a bad thing that example.com/profile/ loads /profile/index.php, rather than passing /profile through a single controller function to identify what code should be responsible for handling it? The first approach actually seems pretty straightforward paradigm and it's what most new programmers would expect. Adopting a MVC/routes method is more complex and arguably overkill for a simple application. If that is what you are contending, it should be said that PHP does not require this approach. Although it is often a preferred approach, because it doesn't depend on additional web server configuration.
- keymone 5y ago
  I’m not suggesting, I’m saying that conflation is mother of confusion. Conflating request path with file path is not a great idea, especially for new developers that get a mental model of how web apps work that is completely irrelevant for the rest of their careers.
  - hn_throwaway_69 5y ago
    There's plenty of large PHP projects that adopt this paradigm. Is it really fair to say it will be completely irrelevant for the rest of their careers? Also, let's not lose sight that this arises in a context of criticism of the model adopted for programming a simple form. This is just a simple one page form. More complex or abstract paradigms or design patterns is overkill.

heavenlyblue 5y ago

You replace your “init” command with some VIMming of your nginx configuration. The next on the line is that PHP doesn’t even need anything like version control because you can just copy files over SFTP. PS: if your project is simple enough to fit in a single file I would argue that most of the time you may use absolutely anything (including a Google Sheet) and you would be equally happy with the results.