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Off-the-shelf .sf2 files containing full-GM instrument banks simply don't have sharp attack samples. I hope they will start having them, but I don't know what i

Off-the-shelf .sf2 files containing full-GM instrument banks simply don't have sharp attack samples. I hope they will start having them, but I don't know what it takes. Are single-instruments (or .sfz files) more likely to have them? Adding support in soundfont players for selectable articulation? MIDI 2? "Just buy a commercial plugin?"

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
SF2 ... forget it. SFZ can do this sort of thing already, as can Kontakt format and also Decent Sampler. SF2 is dead. It was never capable enough as a format to deal with what really needed to be dealt with. It is a quintessentially dated technology, and unless your requirements for sample libraries are very limited ("make a gong-type sound when I hit middle C"), SF2 is not for you.
- nyanpasu64 5y ago
  To my knowledge there are no GM SFZ instrument packs which contain enough instruments to play any MIDI file out there (https://github.com/sfzinstruments/Discord-SFZ-GM-Bank https://github.com/sfzinstruments/Discord-SFZ-GM-Bank has like 10 melodic instruments so far). So I have to pick instruments from the ground up when creating a DAW project (and I don't have a good collection yet), rather than using a unified full-GM bank as a starting point. And don't even think about downloading (eg. Doom) MIDI files and playing them in a soundfont of choice. What's the spiritual successor to General MIDI? Or is the concept no longer viable for (or even wanted by) mainstream electronic, or even semi-orchestral, composers?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    I would say that there is no longer a viable GM-like concept. Take a look at the libraries released by Spitfire Audio. You won't find anything remotely like a GM-style collection. There's a buzz word of the day - "cinematic" - that has been defining new sample library releases for a while now. They are definitely not focused on "here's a sort of complete set of sounds corresponding to traditional instruments". People generally want more unique sounds. Maybe a GM bank is a good starting point for people who will work with fairly traditional instrumentation (even they eventually switch away from the GM bank itself). But it's not much use for people wanting more distinctive timbres and textures, and for "cinematic" work (read: games, films, soundscapes), that's normally the goal. It's also where, for now, the money is.
  - fleabitdev 5y ago
    The most "GM-like" experience I've encountered in a modern commercial product is the Kontakt factory library. It has almost complete General MIDI 1 coverage, plus a handful of random additions (a dozen electric pianos, samples recorded from some vintage synths, an SATB choir singing six different vowels, several drum kits...) The quality is good, but it's not in the same league as specialised libraries. There are usually only two or three velocity layers (for example, the choir can only sing a subdued "aaa" or an intense "AAA"). The orchestral instruments only come with a few articulations, and the guitars and pop brass only provide one articulation each. None of the instruments have sampled legato. Unfortunately, I think this is probably the quality ceiling for a sample library with good General MIDI coverage. If you were to add more velocity layers, articulations and legato transitions, the number of samples would start to grow exponentially, and the cost of the library would grow to match. I'm not sure there's any way around it. I went through a phase where I was trying to put together a really comprehensive collection of samples, but in hindsight it was a fool's errand - you'll get diminishing returns fast, unless you're willing to spend huge amounts of money. Accurately emulating a live performer is a nice option to have, but it isn't actually a requirement for making good music. Huge amounts of excellent music has been made using synthesiser presets, or using instrument samples which would be considered "cheap" or "low-quality" nowadays. As long as you're willing to adapt your compositions to the instruments you have available, rather than stubbornly writing string melodies which could only be performed by a real-life violinist, you'll do well.
    - nyanpasu64 5y ago
      > As long as you're willing to adapt your compositions to the instruments you have available I've seen SNES and DS games whose sample sets handle staccato and sharp attacks better than the average soundfont out there. The cover I posted is worse than the original DS game in this aspect. I assume the Kontakt factory library is competent enough to get this right though. I assume sample packs can't handle wide pitch bends and precise vibrato that well either. Synthesis is probably better, but the pricing I've seen is insane (but probably justified considering the complexity of simulating acoustic instruments).
      - 5y ago

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

SF2 ... forget it. SFZ can do this sort of thing already, as can Kontakt format and also Decent Sampler. SF2 is dead. It was never capable enough as a format to deal with what really needed to be dealt with. It is a quintessentially dated technology, and unless your requirements for sample libraries are very limited ("make a gong-type sound when I hit middle C"), SF2 is not for you.

nyanpasu64 5y ago
To my knowledge there are no GM SFZ instrument packs which contain enough instruments to play any MIDI file out there (https://github.com/sfzinstruments/Discord-SFZ-GM-Bank https://github.com/sfzinstruments/Discord-SFZ-GM-Bank has like 10 melodic instruments so far). So I have to pick instruments from the ground up when creating a DAW project (and I don't have a good collection yet), rather than using a unified full-GM bank as a starting point. And don't even think about downloading (eg. Doom) MIDI files and playing them in a soundfont of choice. What's the spiritual successor to General MIDI? Or is the concept no longer viable for (or even wanted by) mainstream electronic, or even semi-orchestral, composers?
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  I would say that there is no longer a viable GM-like concept. Take a look at the libraries released by Spitfire Audio. You won't find anything remotely like a GM-style collection. There's a buzz word of the day - "cinematic" - that has been defining new sample library releases for a while now. They are definitely not focused on "here's a sort of complete set of sounds corresponding to traditional instruments". People generally want more unique sounds. Maybe a GM bank is a good starting point for people who will work with fairly traditional instrumentation (even they eventually switch away from the GM bank itself). But it's not much use for people wanting more distinctive timbres and textures, and for "cinematic" work (read: games, films, soundscapes), that's normally the goal. It's also where, for now, the money is.
- fleabitdev 5y ago
  The most "GM-like" experience I've encountered in a modern commercial product is the Kontakt factory library. It has almost complete General MIDI 1 coverage, plus a handful of random additions (a dozen electric pianos, samples recorded from some vintage synths, an SATB choir singing six different vowels, several drum kits...) The quality is good, but it's not in the same league as specialised libraries. There are usually only two or three velocity layers (for example, the choir can only sing a subdued "aaa" or an intense "AAA"). The orchestral instruments only come with a few articulations, and the guitars and pop brass only provide one articulation each. None of the instruments have sampled legato. Unfortunately, I think this is probably the quality ceiling for a sample library with good General MIDI coverage. If you were to add more velocity layers, articulations and legato transitions, the number of samples would start to grow exponentially, and the cost of the library would grow to match. I'm not sure there's any way around it. I went through a phase where I was trying to put together a really comprehensive collection of samples, but in hindsight it was a fool's errand - you'll get diminishing returns fast, unless you're willing to spend huge amounts of money. Accurately emulating a live performer is a nice option to have, but it isn't actually a requirement for making good music. Huge amounts of excellent music has been made using synthesiser presets, or using instrument samples which would be considered "cheap" or "low-quality" nowadays. As long as you're willing to adapt your compositions to the instruments you have available, rather than stubbornly writing string melodies which could only be performed by a real-life violinist, you'll do well.
  - nyanpasu64 5y ago
    > As long as you're willing to adapt your compositions to the instruments you have available I've seen SNES and DS games whose sample sets handle staccato and sharp attacks better than the average soundfont out there. The cover I posted is worse than the original DS game in this aspect. I assume the Kontakt factory library is competent enough to get this right though. I assume sample packs can't handle wide pitch bends and precise vibrato that well either. Synthesis is probably better, but the pricing I've seen is insane (but probably justified considering the complexity of simulating acoustic instruments).
    - 5y ago