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One story I’ve heard told about the us navy (don’t have a link sadly) is that their current position is in some ways similar to the British navy in a time of do

One story I’ve heard told about the us navy (don’t have a link sadly) is that their current position is in some ways similar to the British navy in a time of dominance and peace (late eighteenth century maybe?) The story talks about a case where an elaborate system of instructions via raised flags directed two ships into crashing into each other somewhat catastrophically and the diagnosis from today is that the navy had fallen out of shape due to not having had to fight large naval battles—a situation that requires actual success rather than successful training exercises—and that their officers lacked the initiative to properly command their ships (e.g. avoiding crashing into each other). The story was particularly relevant with the US navy having recently had an avoidable collision at the time I saw it. There have basically been no naval conflicts between fairly matched forces since WWII and the story goes that no one knows how to run a navy anymore. I say running a navy in such a conflict is mostly irrelevant because the weapons which may destroy ships (particularly large ones) are so much more effective now that your fleet would be quickly destroyed.

nimbius 5y ago
The unspoken secret here is aircraft carriers existed in the 80s as a component of Kissinger's soft power. In 2021 there isn't a single meaningful country you'd waste the cash to park a carrier on the coast of that couldn't immediately send it to a watery smouldering grave. Even punching bags like Iran are a dicey proposition as the proxy soldiers are too asymmetric to reliably expect a destroyer to engage, and the nation itself is armed to the teeth with the latest Russian missile systems and radar. Hell, that they managed to land a high tech us drone is in itself alone enough to pull teeth out of the navy. Submarines exist to keep the peace. Their real purpose is that they exist and operate in the dated service of mutually assured destruction. Even here the accidents seem to mount lately though as these wandering souls of the doomsday device have seemingly nothing to do The us navy is in the midst of an identity crisis fuelled by octogenarian politicians that have pedalled the institution into treading cold-war era water with no real direction.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I think the bigger problem is that the economic incentives are totally out of step with war readiness or even just wise stewardship of taxpayers' money.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  > there isn't a single meaningful country you'd waste the cash to park a carrier on the coast of that couldn't immediately send it to a watery smouldering grave. Carriers don't go anywhere alone, and they never stop moving except when in port. They are part of a carrier strike group which includes extensive anti-missile capabilities, both from escorting ships and patrol aircraft (LAMPS.) > Submarines exist to keep the peace. Their real purpose is that they exist and operate in the dated service of mutually assured destruction. Submarines are not only for launching nuclear ballistic missiles, as indicated by the relatively large number of submarines that are not designed to carry them. They're used for patrol, surveillance, special ops, escort, etc.
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    > Carriers don't go anywhere alone, and they never stop moving except when in port. They are part of a carrier strike group which includes extensive anti-missile capabilities, both from escorting ships and patrol aircraft (LAMPS.) That sounds very nice but I think whatever is on the land side can store more missile than anti-missile missile on ships. The reality is that the protection of the ship came from the desire to not have a full out war with the US. Once that is out of the picture, and given the adversary is not a punching bag like Iraq, all of them have the potential to rapidly sink on a massive attack. Though if it comes to that, the survivability of the fleet isn't the very first concern...
credit_guy 5y ago
I think the collision you are referring to is the one between HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown in 1893. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victoria_(1887)#Camperdown_strikes_Victoria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victoria_(1887)#Camperdown...
- dan-robertson 5y ago
  That sounds believable to me. I had thought it was sailing ships but I guess not.

nimbius 5y ago

The unspoken secret here is aircraft carriers existed in the 80s as a component of Kissinger's soft power. In 2021 there isn't a single meaningful country you'd waste the cash to park a carrier on the coast of that couldn't immediately send it to a watery smouldering grave. Even punching bags like Iran are a dicey proposition as the proxy soldiers are too asymmetric to reliably expect a destroyer to engage, and the nation itself is armed to the teeth with the latest Russian missile systems and radar. Hell, that they managed to land a high tech us drone is in itself alone enough to pull teeth out of the navy. Submarines exist to keep the peace. Their real purpose is that they exist and operate in the dated service of mutually assured destruction. Even here the accidents seem to mount lately though as these wandering souls of the doomsday device have seemingly nothing to do The us navy is in the midst of an identity crisis fuelled by octogenarian politicians that have pedalled the institution into treading cold-war era water with no real direction.

emodendroket 5y ago
I think the bigger problem is that the economic incentives are totally out of step with war readiness or even just wise stewardship of taxpayers' money.
KennyBlanken 5y ago
> there isn't a single meaningful country you'd waste the cash to park a carrier on the coast of that couldn't immediately send it to a watery smouldering grave. Carriers don't go anywhere alone, and they never stop moving except when in port. They are part of a carrier strike group which includes extensive anti-missile capabilities, both from escorting ships and patrol aircraft (LAMPS.) > Submarines exist to keep the peace. Their real purpose is that they exist and operate in the dated service of mutually assured destruction. Submarines are not only for launching nuclear ballistic missiles, as indicated by the relatively large number of submarines that are not designed to carry them. They're used for patrol, surveillance, special ops, escort, etc.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  > Carriers don't go anywhere alone, and they never stop moving except when in port. They are part of a carrier strike group which includes extensive anti-missile capabilities, both from escorting ships and patrol aircraft (LAMPS.) That sounds very nice but I think whatever is on the land side can store more missile than anti-missile missile on ships. The reality is that the protection of the ship came from the desire to not have a full out war with the US. Once that is out of the picture, and given the adversary is not a punching bag like Iraq, all of them have the potential to rapidly sink on a massive attack. Though if it comes to that, the survivability of the fleet isn't the very first concern...

credit_guy 5y ago

I think the collision you are referring to is the one between HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown in 1893. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victoria_(1887)#Camperdown_strikes_Victoria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victoria_(1887)#Camperdown...

dan-robertson 5y ago
That sounds believable to me. I had thought it was sailing ships but I guess not.