5 ms·

More than a third of white students lie about their race on college applications

25 points by 1cvmask 5y ago

Animats 5y ago
Seventy-seven percent of white applicants who lied about their race on their application were accepted to those colleges. Hm. What happens if applicants lie about gender?
- gus_massa 5y ago
  It is important to compare the 77% with the acceptation rate of white students that didn't lie. Each university accepts a tiny fraction of the applications, but each student usually apply to many of them, so the acceptation ratio is higher.
curiousllama 5y ago
9% claimed to be Asian lmao
- angelzen 5y ago
  Given that Europe is technically an Asian peninsula, they are not even wrong.
  - ginko 5y ago
    If anything it's an Eurasian peninsula.
dang 5y ago
Many white students lied about their race to improve chances of admission - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29011965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29011965 - Oct 2021 (182 comments)
netizen-936824 5y ago
Curious, if race has no scientific basis then how is it possible to lie about one's race? There is no true answer because its all bullshit
- retrac 5y ago
  > if race has no scientific basis then how is it possible to lie about one's race? I believe society sees me as X and/or I believe myself to be X. I then intentionally state that I am Y. Given I do not believe that, it is a lie, regardless of what the categories X and Y are based on.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    >"I believe society sees me as X and/or I believe myself to be X." But that's never the question listed. Its always something like "select/list your race" or "race you identify as"
wisty 5y ago
> Among those willing to fake their minority status, 48 percent of white male applicants lied about their race, while 16 percent of white female applicants did so. I suppose male students are likely to have lower grades. From what I can tell, the more egregious cheaters are usually a bit marginal, or right at the top and want to get an edge to do even better, as the big incentives are either to not lose, or to win - people in the middle have a lot less of an incentive.
- pgcj_poster 5y ago
  Men are also more likely to commit other forms of fraud—and crimes more generally. It seems like the simpler explanation is that men are just less likely to follow the rules than women. Note that this can also be a good thing: men were less likely than women to follow instruction in the Milgram experiment.
Leparamour 5y ago
How dare these individuals subvert well-meant racism? /s
- salawat 5y ago
  Indeed I find it funny how racism is bad... Except in these select few contrived instances where it's magically okay. Yeah... No. It's gotten to the point I start asking people why they need to know with questions like that.
Factorium 5y ago
Is it worth lying about your race for job applications too?
- angelzen 5y ago
  In our postmodern world, identity categories are fluid social constructs. Therefore it is impossible to lie about identity markers on a job application. At least in theory. Please adjust your language accordingly.
sokoloff 5y ago
I wonder where they ever could have gotten the idea that this was okay and they’d suffer no consequences if caught.
xjwm 5y ago
>Most students, 48 percent, claimed to be Native American on their application. I seriously have to wonder...is it possible that some of these applicants are confused about what the term 'Native American' signifies? E.g. confusing being 'from America' instead of a decedent of Indigenous peoples? It could be people taking advantage of the system, but it could also be due to ignorance.
- pgcj_poster 5y ago
  The survey question was "Did you falsely claim to be a racial minority on your college application," so this can only be those who knowingly lied.
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
I do not really understand this (I am not American): since race is declarative over there (and a formal thing at all), why someone would be accused to "lie" about their race? I am white, blond with blue eyes but if saying that I am black gives me preferential treatment, I am certainly black. Using stupid processes leads to stupid (and expected) behaviour.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Assume you apply for college at an Ivy League. Or a SWE job. Or a faculty position. Or for SMB grants. At some point you'll meet the hiring manager / committee face2face. The animus against your skin color will kick in regardless of the box you filled on the application.
  - dissent 5y ago
    Small tangent, but if I type "animus" into Google the first hit is a photo of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I can't decide if that's a coincidence or not.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      Probably your personalization. I see no such image on a fresh incognito session.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    If this is how it works, it is truly a horrible discrimination. I thought that you check a box on an application and it gives you bonus points. If it is an individual that assesses your racial status then it is bad. People who have ancestors with a specific race but do not show the proper external signs are doomed. This is so fucked up that I cannot imagine how it can work if someone decides you are "enough Asian" to not think you are using the system. We are talking in France to anonimize as much as possible the applications to avoid bias, and have someone who may be racist (or in love with your race) to decide on your fate. This is because we have the opposite problem: if your origins show up too early you may be discriminated more easily.
jlawson 5y ago
Years ago, non-whites used to try to present as white. Latinos, Arabs, some Indians and lighter-skinned blacks would avoid the sun, try to use a white accent, and take white-sounding names. They were seeking advantage, because being seen as white was advantageous. Today, we see the reverse. Whites try to identify as non-whites wherever they can. They're faking college applications, posting pistures of their skin tone on Twitter to justify their use of dark-skinned emojis, perming their hair to make afros, reverting from white names like Neil to ancestral names like Kamal. As before, they are seeking advantage, because being seen as non-white is advantageous. And we're angry at them - for arrogating the special privileges of the non-whites.
motohagiography 5y ago
Outrage aside, if someone A/B'd their college applications, what are the odds of being caught and disqualified? It might make sense to add multiple inferior applications to your own, even pay for 5-10 people to do throwaway applications from your high school to raise your appeal.
tomohawk 5y ago
Is an Egyptian who moves to the US an African American? What about someone of Dutch heritage whose ancestors lived in Africa for 350 years, and then moves to the US? Can they be called African American? What if they also have Zulu ancestry? Does it depend on what they look like, or does it depend on what percentage is Zulu? What about someone whose ancestors lived in Jamaica for hundreds of years, ancestry unknown, but dark skinned. If they move to the US and "look" African, can they be considered African American? Or can you only be called African American if your ancestors include those subject to slavery in the US?
foogazi 5y ago
Some of those reading this may find it shocking or humorous - but in the real world people encounter discrimination and there are no boxes to check to flip one’s appearance, accent or name I rationally detest reverse discrimination as much as anyone But I see the situation colleges are in: they are last in line in an unjust system. 60 years ago black kids couldn’t go to some white schools ffs At admission time colleges can’t do anything about an applicants upbringing, immigration status, nutrition, Or the countries racial injustices, redlining, etc The problem comes down to this: it’s easy to discover reverse discrimination because it is explicitly written down in admission policy It’s hard to rail against pervasive institutional discrimination because it is hidden away in personal biases Anectdata: as an immigrant from a developing country I have found the US incredibly welcoming. I’m white with blue eyes, you’d never think I was an immigrant. One time when responding to a craigslist ad for a rental the other person hung up on me when hearing my foreign name - saying I’d probably thrash the place. That was the only instance I remember. I can’t say if my name has helped or hindered me in other job or rental applications

25 points by 1cvmask 5y ago

Seventy-seven percent of white applicants who lied about their race on their application were accepted to those colleges. Hm. What happens if applicants lie about gender?

gus_massa 5y ago
It is important to compare the 77% with the acceptation rate of white students that didn't lie. Each university accepts a tiny fraction of the applications, but each student usually apply to many of them, so the acceptation ratio is higher.

curiousllama 5y ago

9% claimed to be Asian lmao

angelzen 5y ago
Given that Europe is technically an Asian peninsula, they are not even wrong.
- ginko 5y ago
  If anything it's an Eurasian peninsula.

dang 5y ago

Many white students lied about their race to improve chances of admission - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29011965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29011965 - Oct 2021 (182 comments)

netizen-936824 5y ago

Curious, if race has no scientific basis then how is it possible to lie about one's race? There is no true answer because its all bullshit

retrac 5y ago
> if race has no scientific basis then how is it possible to lie about one's race? I believe society sees me as X and/or I believe myself to be X. I then intentionally state that I am Y. Given I do not believe that, it is a lie, regardless of what the categories X and Y are based on.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  >"I believe society sees me as X and/or I believe myself to be X." But that's never the question listed. Its always something like "select/list your race" or "race you identify as"

wisty 5y ago

> Among those willing to fake their minority status, 48 percent of white male applicants lied about their race, while 16 percent of white female applicants did so. I suppose male students are likely to have lower grades. From what I can tell, the more egregious cheaters are usually a bit marginal, or right at the top and want to get an edge to do even better, as the big incentives are either to not lose, or to win - people in the middle have a lot less of an incentive.

pgcj_poster 5y ago
Men are also more likely to commit other forms of fraud—and crimes more generally. It seems like the simpler explanation is that men are just less likely to follow the rules than women. Note that this can also be a good thing: men were less likely than women to follow instruction in the Milgram experiment.

Leparamour 5y ago

How dare these individuals subvert well-meant racism? /s

salawat 5y ago
Indeed I find it funny how racism is bad... Except in these select few contrived instances where it's magically okay. Yeah... No. It's gotten to the point I start asking people why they need to know with questions like that.

Factorium 5y ago

Is it worth lying about your race for job applications too?

angelzen 5y ago
In our postmodern world, identity categories are fluid social constructs. Therefore it is impossible to lie about identity markers on a job application. At least in theory. Please adjust your language accordingly.

sokoloff 5y ago

I wonder where they ever could have gotten the idea that this was okay and they’d suffer no consequences if caught.

xjwm 5y ago

>Most students, 48 percent, claimed to be Native American on their application. I seriously have to wonder...is it possible that some of these applicants are confused about what the term 'Native American' signifies? E.g. confusing being 'from America' instead of a decedent of Indigenous peoples? It could be people taking advantage of the system, but it could also be due to ignorance.

pgcj_poster 5y ago
The survey question was "Did you falsely claim to be a racial minority on your college application," so this can only be those who knowingly lied.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

I do not really understand this (I am not American): since race is declarative over there (and a formal thing at all), why someone would be accused to "lie" about their race? I am white, blond with blue eyes but if saying that I am black gives me preferential treatment, I am certainly black. Using stupid processes leads to stupid (and expected) behaviour.

angelzen 5y ago
Assume you apply for college at an Ivy League. Or a SWE job. Or a faculty position. Or for SMB grants. At some point you'll meet the hiring manager / committee face2face. The animus against your skin color will kick in regardless of the box you filled on the application.
- dissent 5y ago
  Small tangent, but if I type "animus" into Google the first hit is a photo of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I can't decide if that's a coincidence or not.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Probably your personalization. I see no such image on a fresh incognito session.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  If this is how it works, it is truly a horrible discrimination. I thought that you check a box on an application and it gives you bonus points. If it is an individual that assesses your racial status then it is bad. People who have ancestors with a specific race but do not show the proper external signs are doomed. This is so fucked up that I cannot imagine how it can work if someone decides you are "enough Asian" to not think you are using the system. We are talking in France to anonimize as much as possible the applications to avoid bias, and have someone who may be racist (or in love with your race) to decide on your fate. This is because we have the opposite problem: if your origins show up too early you may be discriminated more easily.

jlawson 5y ago

Years ago, non-whites used to try to present as white. Latinos, Arabs, some Indians and lighter-skinned blacks would avoid the sun, try to use a white accent, and take white-sounding names. They were seeking advantage, because being seen as white was advantageous. Today, we see the reverse. Whites try to identify as non-whites wherever they can. They're faking college applications, posting pistures of their skin tone on Twitter to justify their use of dark-skinned emojis, perming their hair to make afros, reverting from white names like Neil to ancestral names like Kamal. As before, they are seeking advantage, because being seen as non-white is advantageous. And we're angry at them - for arrogating the special privileges of the non-whites.

motohagiography 5y ago

Outrage aside, if someone A/B'd their college applications, what are the odds of being caught and disqualified? It might make sense to add multiple inferior applications to your own, even pay for 5-10 people to do throwaway applications from your high school to raise your appeal.

tomohawk 5y ago

Is an Egyptian who moves to the US an African American? What about someone of Dutch heritage whose ancestors lived in Africa for 350 years, and then moves to the US? Can they be called African American? What if they also have Zulu ancestry? Does it depend on what they look like, or does it depend on what percentage is Zulu? What about someone whose ancestors lived in Jamaica for hundreds of years, ancestry unknown, but dark skinned. If they move to the US and "look" African, can they be considered African American? Or can you only be called African American if your ancestors include those subject to slavery in the US?

foogazi 5y ago

Some of those reading this may find it shocking or humorous - but in the real world people encounter discrimination and there are no boxes to check to flip one’s appearance, accent or name I rationally detest reverse discrimination as much as anyone But I see the situation colleges are in: they are last in line in an unjust system. 60 years ago black kids couldn’t go to some white schools ffs At admission time colleges can’t do anything about an applicants upbringing, immigration status, nutrition, Or the countries racial injustices, redlining, etc The problem comes down to this: it’s easy to discover reverse discrimination because it is explicitly written down in admission policy It’s hard to rail against pervasive institutional discrimination because it is hidden away in personal biases Anectdata: as an immigrant from a developing country I have found the US incredibly welcoming. I’m white with blue eyes, you’d never think I was an immigrant. One time when responding to a craigslist ad for a rental the other person hung up on me when hearing my foreign name - saying I’d probably thrash the place. That was the only instance I remember. I can’t say if my name has helped or hindered me in other job or rental applications