6 ms·

Microsoft offers webOS developers free Windows Phones and dev tools

82 points by Flemlord 15y ago

steverb 15y ago
Say what you will about MS's blunders, but I've always found their developer support and outreach to be top notch. Although they've yet to offer me a free phone.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  I'll consider developing for it as soon as the dev tools run on Linux. I really don't want to run Windows. edit: burn, karma, burn
  - nvictor 15y ago
    umm, i guess there is a reason it's called Windows Phone.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      But guess what, they are trying to convert non-Windows developers. Palm allowed me to develop on whatever I wanted. And they sent me a phone upon request (they were never sold in Brazil). So does Google. And every dumbphone out there that supports J2ME. The only company that also wants to restrict what I use is Apple. And Apple throws the equivalent of Visual Studio in with every Mac (all you have to do is download it). I don't think it's out of malice they don't support other platforms. I have a couple friends who work at Microsoft and they seem to really believe that everyone who develops software has a Windows machine and Visual Studio. And, if you are serious about developing software, an MSDN subscription. And this just shows how amazing Microsoft's developer support and outreach really is. As long as you give them money, they support you. If you don't run Windows, they don't really care about you. No, thanks. My software, my rules. And, besides that, it's not like WP7 is gaining much support from manufacturers, or market share.
      - steverb 15y ago
        You can download Visual Studio Express for free as well.
        rbanffy 15y ago
        Only if I have a Windows license, which I don't.
      - mahyarm 15y ago
        If you have a computer that is good enough to develop software on, you can figure out a way. Windows will run on almost any box that a Linux or Mac box runs on. Microsoft rightly believes that everyone who has a machine to develop software can figure out how to get a machine that runs Windows and Visual studio. If your too poor to buy the software you'll pirate it, and they can't squeeze blood from a stone anyway.
      - runjake 15y ago
        But guess what, they are trying to convert non-Windows developers. Fortunately, the mass majority of programmers in the world program in and/or on Windows. When MS is inviting programmers on their WP7 platform, you can safely assume they don't mean you. The Apple/Microsoft development scenario is equal. XCode is free, Visual Studio Express is free. You don't really need an MSDN subscription at all. And this just shows how amazing Microsoft's developer support and outreach really is. As long as you give them money, they support you. And this is why MS releases great dev tools, resources, documents, blogs, etc for free? They're offering a 2 day intensive WP7 programming e-course next week. Cost? Free. If you don't run Windows, they don't really care about you. Of course not. Does Apple care about you if you aren't using a Mac or an iPad? No. Does the Ubuntu team care about you if you're not using Ubuntu? Of course not. it's not like WP7 is gaining much support from manufacturers, or market share. Aside from Acer, Dell, Nokia, HTC, Samsung, Huwei, etc? You're right about market share, but they've been at it less than a year with an OS with a rather mediocre feature set. Let's see how things are another year from now with Mango and beyond. Android took a while to kick in, too. I have to ask again. You go off and troll every. single. Microsoft thread, but you claim to shun and abhor them. So why are you here trolling up discussions?
  - mahmud 15y ago
    Why is this guy being downvoted? Mobile development tools don't need to be tied to a desktop OS. Microsoft tauts Mono as a portable alternative. Let them release a WP7 SDK that works on Mono. The Java SDK is much richer & much more sophisticated, yet it has the same experience everywhere. Really, only differences between writing Android apps with Eclipse on Win32 vs Linux vs Mac are the window decorations. Heck, even Postgres has portable tools. The GUI installer & PgAdminIII look exact everywhere.
    - runjake 15y ago
      Why is this guy being downvoted? Probably because he trolls Microsoft story submissions all the time.
    - barista 15y ago
      Agree dev tools don't have to be tied to any OS and come to think about it, the fledgling Windows Phone OS will benefit if there are more people adopting the dev platform if it runs on Linux BUT you have to draw a line somewhere. realize that this is a new platform and they are trying to prioritize resources. What do you think will give Microsoft more bang for the buck? Supporting a platform that is will likely land them a dev or two or making their core platform kick-ass? I think we all know what the answer is.
  - sjs 15y ago
    Your stance is a kind of funny. When people complain about certain web dev tasks being difficult on Windows we say, "Yeesh, just run Linux already! You can even use a VM." And if you ask me that's precisely the response MS should give to requests such as yours. I mean, would you really expect them to port their SDK over so that a handful of Linux devs will consider trying it out? Doesn't seem like there would be a big payoff. I bet a majority of devs who use Linux wouldn't even consider it. After making a WP7 app at my day job I sure wouldn't.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      If it's fun to develop for, I go for it. I have given up Java before writing things for Android and I can tell you it's a nice environment to play. Palm was a joy to write for. Why did you think I was a Palm developer? Because it's fun, not because I dreamed of retiring after selling a million copies of something. If I wanted a huge market, I'd cover Android an Apple. There are developers who'll follow the money, wherever it is. Some very good ones won't. Or, like I said elsewhere, Microsoft has the best developers money can buy. Platforms like WebOS have the best ones money can't buy. Oh... And I'd be perfectly fine with a VM image with Windows and the WP7 dev tools. I just don't want to boot into Windows or buy a license so that I can make their product more attractive.
      - sjs 15y ago
        > I just don't want to [...] buy a license [...] Would you pay the $100/year AppHub fee to publish apps for WP7 if you ended up liking it? This sort of argument just reminds of all those who whine about having to buy a Mac to do iOS development but in reality they wouldn't be doing iOS dev anyways, they just like to loudly cite all the reasons that they're not doing it for some reason.
        rbanffy 15y ago
        If I saw a WP7 market share uptake, probably yes.
- BrandonWatson 15y ago
  I am responsible for dev experience on Windows Phone. We have phones available for developers. All developers. We optimize for devs building apps. If you are building apps for Windows Phone, shoot me an email and we'll get you connected to one of our awesome mobile champs. I can be reached at ThePhone [at] Microsoft
  - steverb 15y ago
    No sour grapes. :-) I have been offered loaner equipment on several occasions.
potatolicious 15y ago
What for? So these guys can get burned twice instead of once? Sorry for the snark - I like WP7, I think it's a refreshing take on smartphone UI, but adoption is really at a standstill. It's been how long since it launched and I've only ever seen one in the wild that didn't belong to someone affiliated with MSFT. God knows I'd love to have a viable third player in the mobile platform wars, but as it is it just isn't happening.
- nonane 15y ago
  HP didn't have a chance - they don't have the software DNA that Google, Apple and Microsoft have. Microsoft is the underdog here but they have a much better chance of making something happen.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    All Apotheker had to do was to continue funding the development of WebOS devices. HP bought the DNA they needed and Apotheker threw it out.
    - Apocryphon 15y ago
      I can't believe Apotheker made such stridently pro-webOS comments just a month ago about how much HP is behind the platform, just to pull the rug from underneath.
      - megablast 15y ago
        The consummate business person: It is all about the numbers.
    - technoslut 15y ago
      I'm not so sure. There were many of the WebOS team that left immediately after the acquisition. The true tragedy of HP had occurred well before Apotheker.
      - 15y ago
vipivip 15y ago
I welcome Microsoft into the mobile platform competition.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  I assume you are being sarcastic. They have been in this race since the first release of Windows CE in the late 90's. They even dominated the segment for quite some time.
  - vipivip 15y ago
    It was sarcasm.
    - jmspring 15y ago
      It may be sarcasm, but WP7 is quite a bit different than WinMo 6. Different tools, different design, etc. Developing for WinMo 6 wasn't a hardship, if you knew most of the windows APIs. That said, you had to develop using a lot of familiar Windows APIs. WP7 is supposed to be cleaner. I don't use it currently, but will be interested when I have the chance (probably later this year). In a sense, each platform requires that you "adopt" their platform of choice. iOS - OSX, WinCE - Windows, Android - Eclipse (and you aren't going to tell me Eclipse is actually superior to OSX or WinX or Linux -- it is bloated, kludgy, and has it's own quirks -- but it is the easiest platform for android dev)... That said, the worst mobile dev. platform I've ever used was Symbian. On Windows it was a jumble, on *nix/OSX it was a trip into insanity.
      - cageface 15y ago
        Actually, with the exception of the visual layout tools, I find IntelliJ better in just about every way than Eclipse for Android coding. And it's so much better than XCode 4 that I wouldn't know where to start enumerating the differences. I know a lot of people are happily coding Android apps with Vim or Emacs and command line tools too.
        15y ago
disgruntledwp7 15y ago
Throwaway here. I would take whatever Brandon or other WP7 dev team managers say or promise with a heavy grain of salt. Recently, I was in discussions with a couple people at Microsoft to swing one of the free developer phones they were offering on Twitter. They speak of giving one away like it's no big deal. So I had some back and forth with them on an app, and they said something like "Ok, get a MVP and we'll see about getting you some goodies". I got the MVP done and sent off emails and haven't heard back from them in weeks. Not even a "no". So yeah, I feel a little bitter about it all. It's not like they owe me anything, but just take whatever Brandon, Ben, and gang say with a great big grain of salt. I see a lot of talk about supporting developers from Microsoft, but not a lot of action.
- BrandonWatson 15y ago
  Tell me exactly to whom you have been speaking. I want to make sure we make good on our commitment to you. My email is ThePhone [at] Microsoft...please reference this HN post.
- bignoggins 15y ago
  I've worked with Brandon and got a WP7 phone fairly quickly. But I already had a popular iPhone app.
strmpnk 15y ago
After seeing this I installed Windows (shocking, I haven't used Windows since Windows 2000) and installed the express SDK to check it out. I have to admit I'm actually liking what's there. While I didn't quite have my webOS apps ready to be published, so I don't really qualify for this I guess, I might have to consider the platform. The UI itself is fresh and much better than what I saw from CE on PocketPCs years ago. Of course, not having an actual phone hurts so maybe I'll wait and see how things evolve with the mango release first; I'm still feeling pretty burnt on investing in webOS hardware.
quattrofan 15y ago
So what another 10 people will now have WP7 phone for a total of about 12 people (including Steve Ballmer and one mate of mine)?
mattwdelong 15y ago
To be honest, I'm rather interested in trying out a WP7 phone. The problem that I have is the fact that it's a huge barrier to entry to dish out hundreds of dollars just to test out a small device. I'm not in a position to be able to just dish money out like that, and I assume there are many people in the same boat as me. I guess that's the greatest burden to anyone trying to break into this market - everyone questions why they should dish out the same amount of money for x phone, when they could just get an iPhone for approximately the same amount of money - they already know everyone loves the iphone. With that being said, I think Brandon Watson is doing his job extremely well - he is eliminating that barrier to entry and getting hackers using WP7 devices. Perhaps creating evangelists. On a side note, Windows 7 has got me to switch back to a Windows OS, from Debian, that I had been running as my main OS since Vista came out. I'm just one guy, but Microsoft is doing some things right. Maybe they can make WP7 work?
- runjake 15y ago
  FWIW, you can commonly score an HTC Surround for about $100 on Craigslist, and they are completely capable, albeit unsexy, devices. I never experience the slightest lag or slowdown with Mango on mine, and it feels much faster than my iPhone 4.
  - mattwdelong 15y ago
    I currently run an unsexy Android phone, so I could bare with something less than optimal. It runs, makes phone calls and I can play with it, so I am happy and fairly easy to please. With that being said, I just checked ebay and you're right, the surround is listed quite cheap. I'm currently in Canada (for now) so I wonder how easy it is to unlock so I can run it on a Canadian carrier?
    - runjake 15y ago
      I paid $25 USD to get mine unlocked from htcimeiunlock.com. I'm told you can get them for half that price. Got an unlock code back about 15 minutes after I paid for it.
larsberg 15y ago
That's neat and I'm glad to see it's so high-touch. I tried writing an app for my phone, but got stymied... by the sign-up/verification process. Tried using DreamSpark (https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx ), and unlike the Apple sign-up there's this weird third party verification that you're a real human developer or something and after weeks of trying to figure out how to get them to actually validate me so I could install apps onto my phone, I just gave up. And mind you, I pretty much know what I'm doing. I was on the Visual Studio team for 7 years, I sold > $100k in iPhone apps, and I do work on compilers towards my PhD right now. A poor undergrad might not even be able to get as far as I did...
rsanchez1 15y ago
I tried sending him an email but got no response. Either the demand is too much for them to keep up, or he's just blowing a lot of hot air.

82 points by Flemlord 15y ago

Say what you will about MS's blunders, but I've always found their developer support and outreach to be top notch. Although they've yet to offer me a free phone.

rbanffy 15y ago
I'll consider developing for it as soon as the dev tools run on Linux. I really don't want to run Windows. edit: burn, karma, burn
- nvictor 15y ago
  umm, i guess there is a reason it's called Windows Phone.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    But guess what, they are trying to convert non-Windows developers. Palm allowed me to develop on whatever I wanted. And they sent me a phone upon request (they were never sold in Brazil). So does Google. And every dumbphone out there that supports J2ME. The only company that also wants to restrict what I use is Apple. And Apple throws the equivalent of Visual Studio in with every Mac (all you have to do is download it). I don't think it's out of malice they don't support other platforms. I have a couple friends who work at Microsoft and they seem to really believe that everyone who develops software has a Windows machine and Visual Studio. And, if you are serious about developing software, an MSDN subscription. And this just shows how amazing Microsoft's developer support and outreach really is. As long as you give them money, they support you. If you don't run Windows, they don't really care about you. No, thanks. My software, my rules. And, besides that, it's not like WP7 is gaining much support from manufacturers, or market share.
    - steverb 15y ago
      You can download Visual Studio Express for free as well.
      - rbanffy 15y ago
        Only if I have a Windows license, which I don't.
    - mahyarm 15y ago
      If you have a computer that is good enough to develop software on, you can figure out a way. Windows will run on almost any box that a Linux or Mac box runs on. Microsoft rightly believes that everyone who has a machine to develop software can figure out how to get a machine that runs Windows and Visual studio. If your too poor to buy the software you'll pirate it, and they can't squeeze blood from a stone anyway.
    - runjake 15y ago
      But guess what, they are trying to convert non-Windows developers. Fortunately, the mass majority of programmers in the world program in and/or on Windows. When MS is inviting programmers on their WP7 platform, you can safely assume they don't mean you. The Apple/Microsoft development scenario is equal. XCode is free, Visual Studio Express is free. You don't really need an MSDN subscription at all. And this just shows how amazing Microsoft's developer support and outreach really is. As long as you give them money, they support you. And this is why MS releases great dev tools, resources, documents, blogs, etc for free? They're offering a 2 day intensive WP7 programming e-course next week. Cost? Free. If you don't run Windows, they don't really care about you. Of course not. Does Apple care about you if you aren't using a Mac or an iPad? No. Does the Ubuntu team care about you if you're not using Ubuntu? Of course not. it's not like WP7 is gaining much support from manufacturers, or market share. Aside from Acer, Dell, Nokia, HTC, Samsung, Huwei, etc? You're right about market share, but they've been at it less than a year with an OS with a rather mediocre feature set. Let's see how things are another year from now with Mango and beyond. Android took a while to kick in, too. I have to ask again. You go off and troll every. single. Microsoft thread, but you claim to shun and abhor them. So why are you here trolling up discussions?
- mahmud 15y ago
  Why is this guy being downvoted? Mobile development tools don't need to be tied to a desktop OS. Microsoft tauts Mono as a portable alternative. Let them release a WP7 SDK that works on Mono. The Java SDK is much richer & much more sophisticated, yet it has the same experience everywhere. Really, only differences between writing Android apps with Eclipse on Win32 vs Linux vs Mac are the window decorations. Heck, even Postgres has portable tools. The GUI installer & PgAdminIII look exact everywhere.
  - runjake 15y ago
    Why is this guy being downvoted? Probably because he trolls Microsoft story submissions all the time.
  - barista 15y ago
    Agree dev tools don't have to be tied to any OS and come to think about it, the fledgling Windows Phone OS will benefit if there are more people adopting the dev platform if it runs on Linux BUT you have to draw a line somewhere. realize that this is a new platform and they are trying to prioritize resources. What do you think will give Microsoft more bang for the buck? Supporting a platform that is will likely land them a dev or two or making their core platform kick-ass? I think we all know what the answer is.
- sjs 15y ago
  Your stance is a kind of funny. When people complain about certain web dev tasks being difficult on Windows we say, "Yeesh, just run Linux already! You can even use a VM." And if you ask me that's precisely the response MS should give to requests such as yours. I mean, would you really expect them to port their SDK over so that a handful of Linux devs will consider trying it out? Doesn't seem like there would be a big payoff. I bet a majority of devs who use Linux wouldn't even consider it. After making a WP7 app at my day job I sure wouldn't.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    If it's fun to develop for, I go for it. I have given up Java before writing things for Android and I can tell you it's a nice environment to play. Palm was a joy to write for. Why did you think I was a Palm developer? Because it's fun, not because I dreamed of retiring after selling a million copies of something. If I wanted a huge market, I'd cover Android an Apple. There are developers who'll follow the money, wherever it is. Some very good ones won't. Or, like I said elsewhere, Microsoft has the best developers money can buy. Platforms like WebOS have the best ones money can't buy. Oh... And I'd be perfectly fine with a VM image with Windows and the WP7 dev tools. I just don't want to boot into Windows or buy a license so that I can make their product more attractive.
    - sjs 15y ago
      > I just don't want to [...] buy a license [...] Would you pay the $100/year AppHub fee to publish apps for WP7 if you ended up liking it? This sort of argument just reminds of all those who whine about having to buy a Mac to do iOS development but in reality they wouldn't be doing iOS dev anyways, they just like to loudly cite all the reasons that they're not doing it for some reason.
      - rbanffy 15y ago
        If I saw a WP7 market share uptake, probably yes.
BrandonWatson 15y ago
I am responsible for dev experience on Windows Phone. We have phones available for developers. All developers. We optimize for devs building apps. If you are building apps for Windows Phone, shoot me an email and we'll get you connected to one of our awesome mobile champs. I can be reached at ThePhone [at] Microsoft
- steverb 15y ago
  No sour grapes. :-) I have been offered loaner equipment on several occasions.

potatolicious 15y ago

What for? So these guys can get burned twice instead of once? Sorry for the snark - I like WP7, I think it's a refreshing take on smartphone UI, but adoption is really at a standstill. It's been how long since it launched and I've only ever seen one in the wild that didn't belong to someone affiliated with MSFT. God knows I'd love to have a viable third player in the mobile platform wars, but as it is it just isn't happening.

nonane 15y ago
HP didn't have a chance - they don't have the software DNA that Google, Apple and Microsoft have. Microsoft is the underdog here but they have a much better chance of making something happen.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  All Apotheker had to do was to continue funding the development of WebOS devices. HP bought the DNA they needed and Apotheker threw it out.
  - Apocryphon 15y ago
    I can't believe Apotheker made such stridently pro-webOS comments just a month ago about how much HP is behind the platform, just to pull the rug from underneath.
    - megablast 15y ago
      The consummate business person: It is all about the numbers.
  - technoslut 15y ago
    I'm not so sure. There were many of the WebOS team that left immediately after the acquisition. The true tragedy of HP had occurred well before Apotheker.
    - 15y ago

vipivip 15y ago

I welcome Microsoft into the mobile platform competition.

rbanffy 15y ago
I assume you are being sarcastic. They have been in this race since the first release of Windows CE in the late 90's. They even dominated the segment for quite some time.
- vipivip 15y ago
  It was sarcasm.
  - jmspring 15y ago
    It may be sarcasm, but WP7 is quite a bit different than WinMo 6. Different tools, different design, etc. Developing for WinMo 6 wasn't a hardship, if you knew most of the windows APIs. That said, you had to develop using a lot of familiar Windows APIs. WP7 is supposed to be cleaner. I don't use it currently, but will be interested when I have the chance (probably later this year). In a sense, each platform requires that you "adopt" their platform of choice. iOS - OSX, WinCE - Windows, Android - Eclipse (and you aren't going to tell me Eclipse is actually superior to OSX or WinX or Linux -- it is bloated, kludgy, and has it's own quirks -- but it is the easiest platform for android dev)... That said, the worst mobile dev. platform I've ever used was Symbian. On Windows it was a jumble, on *nix/OSX it was a trip into insanity.
    - cageface 15y ago
      Actually, with the exception of the visual layout tools, I find IntelliJ better in just about every way than Eclipse for Android coding. And it's so much better than XCode 4 that I wouldn't know where to start enumerating the differences. I know a lot of people are happily coding Android apps with Vim or Emacs and command line tools too.
      - 15y ago

disgruntledwp7 15y ago

Throwaway here. I would take whatever Brandon or other WP7 dev team managers say or promise with a heavy grain of salt. Recently, I was in discussions with a couple people at Microsoft to swing one of the free developer phones they were offering on Twitter. They speak of giving one away like it's no big deal. So I had some back and forth with them on an app, and they said something like "Ok, get a MVP and we'll see about getting you some goodies". I got the MVP done and sent off emails and haven't heard back from them in weeks. Not even a "no". So yeah, I feel a little bitter about it all. It's not like they owe me anything, but just take whatever Brandon, Ben, and gang say with a great big grain of salt. I see a lot of talk about supporting developers from Microsoft, but not a lot of action.

BrandonWatson 15y ago
Tell me exactly to whom you have been speaking. I want to make sure we make good on our commitment to you. My email is ThePhone [at] Microsoft...please reference this HN post.
bignoggins 15y ago
I've worked with Brandon and got a WP7 phone fairly quickly. But I already had a popular iPhone app.

strmpnk 15y ago

After seeing this I installed Windows (shocking, I haven't used Windows since Windows 2000) and installed the express SDK to check it out. I have to admit I'm actually liking what's there. While I didn't quite have my webOS apps ready to be published, so I don't really qualify for this I guess, I might have to consider the platform. The UI itself is fresh and much better than what I saw from CE on PocketPCs years ago. Of course, not having an actual phone hurts so maybe I'll wait and see how things evolve with the mango release first; I'm still feeling pretty burnt on investing in webOS hardware.

quattrofan 15y ago

So what another 10 people will now have WP7 phone for a total of about 12 people (including Steve Ballmer and one mate of mine)?

mattwdelong 15y ago

To be honest, I'm rather interested in trying out a WP7 phone. The problem that I have is the fact that it's a huge barrier to entry to dish out hundreds of dollars just to test out a small device. I'm not in a position to be able to just dish money out like that, and I assume there are many people in the same boat as me. I guess that's the greatest burden to anyone trying to break into this market - everyone questions why they should dish out the same amount of money for x phone, when they could just get an iPhone for approximately the same amount of money - they already know everyone loves the iphone. With that being said, I think Brandon Watson is doing his job extremely well - he is eliminating that barrier to entry and getting hackers using WP7 devices. Perhaps creating evangelists. On a side note, Windows 7 has got me to switch back to a Windows OS, from Debian, that I had been running as my main OS since Vista came out. I'm just one guy, but Microsoft is doing some things right. Maybe they can make WP7 work?

runjake 15y ago
FWIW, you can commonly score an HTC Surround for about $100 on Craigslist, and they are completely capable, albeit unsexy, devices. I never experience the slightest lag or slowdown with Mango on mine, and it feels much faster than my iPhone 4.
- mattwdelong 15y ago
  I currently run an unsexy Android phone, so I could bare with something less than optimal. It runs, makes phone calls and I can play with it, so I am happy and fairly easy to please. With that being said, I just checked ebay and you're right, the surround is listed quite cheap. I'm currently in Canada (for now) so I wonder how easy it is to unlock so I can run it on a Canadian carrier?
  - runjake 15y ago
    I paid $25 USD to get mine unlocked from htcimeiunlock.com. I'm told you can get them for half that price. Got an unlock code back about 15 minutes after I paid for it.

larsberg 15y ago

That's neat and I'm glad to see it's so high-touch. I tried writing an app for my phone, but got stymied... by the sign-up/verification process. Tried using DreamSpark (https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx ), and unlike the Apple sign-up there's this weird third party verification that you're a real human developer or something and after weeks of trying to figure out how to get them to actually validate me so I could install apps onto my phone, I just gave up. And mind you, I pretty much know what I'm doing. I was on the Visual Studio team for 7 years, I sold > $100k in iPhone apps, and I do work on compilers towards my PhD right now. A poor undergrad might not even be able to get as far as I did...

rsanchez1 15y ago

I tried sending him an email but got no response. Either the demand is too much for them to keep up, or he's just blowing a lot of hot air.