4 ms·

It probably started out as a character trait among early programmers, but these days I'm convinced it's mostly a cultural thing. It's not actually about the sof

It probably started out as a character trait among early programmers, but these days I'm convinced it's mostly a cultural thing. It's not actually about the software as much as these folks want to say it is by saying things like "RTFM"; it's selecting for people with similar emotional reactions to themselves. Consequently, you're also going to see more abrasiveness in very online programmers. Devs that don't want to deal with the abrasive gatekeeping and bikeshedding online and just want to get shit done either work on projects and share them in private circles or quietly write cool software for industry. I know folks working on microkernel stuff and capability-security that just don't want to get into online language flamewars or complexity flamewars, so they just don't publish their stuff on the big link aggregators. Entire online software communities (suckless, PL enthusiasts, etc) have been created around cultures of rewarding gatekeepers; things like "our software sucks because we're forced to write it for _normies_" (suckless) or "oh those capitalist, Fordian idiots causing us to use sad programming languages that aren't Haskell/Ocaml/Lisp/etc" (PL enthusiasts). It's sad because it holds these developers back from understanding why people don't buy into their philosophies. But for a lot of these folks, I don't think writing and sharing software is the end goal. They want to form a community and a culture with other people where they can shit on the normies or Fordians because it offers them pleasure in some form.

JoelMcCracken 5y ago
The last time I remember seeing someone say "RTFM" is probably something like 2006? in the freenode bash IRC room. Where are you frequenting that you see such things? I don't know any haskellers who I would think say or think the things you say. Most of them realize that they're into a niche thing. I think most of them want the good things of haskell to be shared to the larger community, but we just don't know how to get there from here. Well, I take that back. There is one person I know of who is what I would consider gatekeeper-y, and I really generally disagree with him on almost everything, except I too like Haskell. But this is one person out of the many many haskellers I know.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  > The last time I remember seeing someone say "RTFM" is probably something like 2006? in the freenode bash IRC room. Where are you frequenting that you see such things? Just a cursory search, nothing specific: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28831243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28831243 https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_error#c_z578dk https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_er... https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_error#c_w9c0ef https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_er... https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_error#c_hwozuu https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_er... https://lobste.rs/s/d1tk0e/overhead_returning_optional_values_java#c_zjio02 https://lobste.rs/s/d1tk0e/overhead_returning_optional_value... https://lobste.rs/s/cpfajx/java_16_gets_records_jep_395#c_drkzuv https://lobste.rs/s/cpfajx/java_16_gets_records_jep_395#c_dr... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29006854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29006854 I can definitely find more but this is what 5 minutes of searching turned up, and while many of them come from the same thread, I can find way more where that came from. There's legitimately a vocal contingent online that wants to gatekeep around PL usage. Note the language there: "inferior language and ecosystems", "Rob Pike doesn't trust programmers to be good", "The entire attitude is an apology for the bare fact that Go doesn’t have error-handling syntax", "perhaps we care a little too much about ordinary users?" These aren't solidarity-building statements. They're about flaming, expressing intransigent opinions, and gatekeeping. > I don't know any haskellers who I would think say or think the things you say. Most of them realize that they're into a niche thing. I think most of them want the good things of haskell to be shared to the larger community, but we just don't know how to get there from here. When I said "PL enthusiasts" or "suckless", I don't necessarily mean to say every, or even most, PL enthusiasts fall into that bucket. Likewise devs interested in simple architectures aren't all in the "suckless" camp. Like I said, there's plenty of folks doing great work exploring things like ML-based functional programming or simple, composable designs. What there also is though is a vocal community, probably a minority, of folks who _do_ create a tribe of gatekeepers. As I was saying in my last post, these folks are usually the Very Online type as most folks trying to actually get things done spend less time inciting flamewars and more time actually writing code. But my post is more about this strain of very (online) visible toxicity in programming. Taking opinionated, intransigent positions is disturbingly common in programming and I largely think it's a practice holding the state of the art back.

JoelMcCracken 5y ago

The last time I remember seeing someone say "RTFM" is probably something like 2006? in the freenode bash IRC room. Where are you frequenting that you see such things? I don't know any haskellers who I would think say or think the things you say. Most of them realize that they're into a niche thing. I think most of them want the good things of haskell to be shared to the larger community, but we just don't know how to get there from here. Well, I take that back. There is one person I know of who is what I would consider gatekeeper-y, and I really generally disagree with him on almost everything, except I too like Haskell. But this is one person out of the many many haskellers I know.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
> The last time I remember seeing someone say "RTFM" is probably something like 2006? in the freenode bash IRC room. Where are you frequenting that you see such things? Just a cursory search, nothing specific: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28831243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28831243 https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_error#c_z578dk https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_er... https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_error#c_w9c0ef https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_er... https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_error#c_hwozuu https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_er... https://lobste.rs/s/d1tk0e/overhead_returning_optional_values_java#c_zjio02 https://lobste.rs/s/d1tk0e/overhead_returning_optional_value... https://lobste.rs/s/cpfajx/java_16_gets_records_jep_395#c_drkzuv https://lobste.rs/s/cpfajx/java_16_gets_records_jep_395#c_dr... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29006854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29006854 I can definitely find more but this is what 5 minutes of searching turned up, and while many of them come from the same thread, I can find way more where that came from. There's legitimately a vocal contingent online that wants to gatekeep around PL usage. Note the language there: "inferior language and ecosystems", "Rob Pike doesn't trust programmers to be good", "The entire attitude is an apology for the bare fact that Go doesn’t have error-handling syntax", "perhaps we care a little too much about ordinary users?" These aren't solidarity-building statements. They're about flaming, expressing intransigent opinions, and gatekeeping. > I don't know any haskellers who I would think say or think the things you say. Most of them realize that they're into a niche thing. I think most of them want the good things of haskell to be shared to the larger community, but we just don't know how to get there from here. When I said "PL enthusiasts" or "suckless", I don't necessarily mean to say every, or even most, PL enthusiasts fall into that bucket. Likewise devs interested in simple architectures aren't all in the "suckless" camp. Like I said, there's plenty of folks doing great work exploring things like ML-based functional programming or simple, composable designs. What there also is though is a vocal community, probably a minority, of folks who _do_ create a tribe of gatekeepers. As I was saying in my last post, these folks are usually the Very Online type as most folks trying to actually get things done spend less time inciting flamewars and more time actually writing code. But my post is more about this strain of very (online) visible toxicity in programming. Taking opinionated, intransigent positions is disturbingly common in programming and I largely think it's a practice holding the state of the art back.