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Well, for one, there was a letter signed by 1xx retired leaders but I'm having trouble finding it on google under the pile of pro D&I propaganda that exclusivel

Well, for one, there was a letter signed by 1xx retired leaders but I'm having trouble finding it on google under the pile of pro D&I propaganda that exclusively makes up search results. For two, consistent anecdata from personal acquaintances and forum posts. The demographics are also completely changing. The military was until recently carried primarily by white men from small town America. Now white maleness is effectively a career handicap when genitals, skin color, and sexual orientation are considered for promotion. I think the recent army advertisements are a valid proxy for the negative value that current leadership places on white-maleness. A military which is still majority white and male is releasing recruitment videos which exclusively feature minorities, females, and a healthy sprinkling of homosexuality. Here's a nice illustration, comparing recent US ads to those from Russia and China[0]. Only two of those forces are actually interested in recruiting competent soldiers, if these ads are any indication. China is laughing. 0. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfe6d6MzeLM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfe6d6MzeLM Edit: the sister post by jimmygrapes found one of the reports/letters I was looking for. I urge you all to read it to see, among other things, what happens to morale when demographic considerations are added to promotion evaluations. What is reported is consistent with what I've been hearing from former servicemember acquaintances.

ceejayoz 5y ago
Are you a lost time traveler? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9981 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9981
- twofornone 5y ago
  What do you think a diversity quota is, if not discrimination? Maybe you're suggesting that it's time for the supreme court to step in, given that these hiring and promotion practices are, as your link clearly states, illegal? This is pretty cut and dry. You may be supportive of D&I but by definition it is an exclusionary, discriminatory, a-meritocratic, and illegal policy. The fact that these quotas tend to be implicit does not change the legality (or morality) of the widespread practices.
  - asbest0s 5y ago
    As a former enlisted member myself, I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, any attempt to bring attention to this in masturbatory echo chambers such as this will not be met well.
  - Raidion 5y ago
    Do you think having different opinions, experiences, and backgrounds is something that should be left out of decision making? Can you see any value in making sure the army is diverse to make sure it still can recruit, integrate, and retain people from all over the US and not just people from one specific background? This is honestly a very grey area and could be taken too far, but there seems to be clear benefits to having armed forces that everyone feels represents them. And that's worth at least some impact on effectiveness, right?
    - angelzen 5y ago
      There are only 2 stable fixpoints: meritocracy and sectarianism, with meritocracy being merely metastable. Trouble is, sectarian armed force don't win wars. At worst they engage in civil war. Your logic is unassailable, sadly few people bother to acquiesce the consequences.
    - vimy 5y ago
      A rich black man and a rich white man have more in common, in thoughts and experiences, than a rich white man and a poor white man. Class is so much more important than race yet the Western world, especially the US, is obsessed by race.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        They’re heavily linked in the US. https://money.yahoo.com/black-americans-net-worth-is-one-seventh-of-whites-203317473.html https://money.yahoo.com/black-americans-net-worth-is-one-sev... > The average net worth of Black families is $142,330 — or just one-seventh of the $980,550 in wealth accumulated by white Americans, according to a new study from LendingTree that draws on data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the 2020 Economic Policy Institute report, and various Federal Reserve reports. > The median net worth of both shows similar disparities. The median wealth for Black families is $24,100, or about one-eighth of that for white families at $189,100, according to the study.
s5300 5y ago
Good friend of mine is a white male O-4 BN in the Navy, previously a marine, from a family of predominantly white men in the Navy/military in general, with female family members also in the military. He first started talking to me about this "perceived issue" you speak of back in the beginning of 2019. Has repeatedly stated is the most hilariously stupid white nationalist and incel-esque shit he's ever had to hear about or deal with Along with the fact that everybody he's observed as a marine and a Navy BN spouting off about it is typically an obnoxious douche who everybody hates and is generally incompetent at some of the easiest jobs our government provides citizens. So, after reading what you've posted, the theme of it seems to line up with his, his families, and all of his higher ranking friends observations - just another person butthurt about females and people who aren't white, likely because you feel you've somehow been wronged by them in life or have other issues you need therapy for. But go on about this being the issue, and not many of the clearly observered, defined, and reported on issues that the Navy/US Military in general is facing. Hint: one of them is white nationalists, and the poor quality of service/general incompetence and questions about loyalty that typically come with them. Losers is something I can recall him repeatedly referring to them as, but I'm not sure how appropriate that is for HN. And, since we're in the thread about the Bonhomme - I'll mention he has some very nice footage of the fire from Coronado bridge.
- twofornone 5y ago
  It's pretty gross that in light of clear evidence of widespread discrimination you dismiss legitimate complaints with generic and shallow accusations of inceldom, white nationalism, and incompetence. Reverse racism is still racism. Step back for a moment and consider what psychological effect such explicitly discriminatory policy may have on any demographic on the receiving end. Explicitly assigning disadvantages according to immutable characteristics fuels so called "white nationalism", as do blithe dismissals such as yours. You can't have it both ways - either you attempt to hire by merit or you acknowledge that you are motivating self-preserving movements in demographics which perceive discrimination. There's also a certain selection bias among those willing to complain. Generally those with good career prospects are far more likely to keep their heads down rather than risk repercussions for speaking against top down D&I pressure - so the fact that the loudest may not be stellar examples of good soldiering does not imply that this perceived discrimination is not more widespread among otherwise competent personell.
jay_kyburz 5y ago
I like how in the Chinese ad they don't even hide the fact that you might have to run along side the tanks while shells rain down on you. You would have to be mad to watch that video and think, yes that's the life for me!
- User23 5y ago
  I’m willing to bet at least ten times as many young men as young women think that’s a good idea.
rootusrootus 5y ago
> until recently carried primarily by white men from small town America How do you define recent? This was not the case when I was in the military almost 30 years ago.
- s5300 5y ago
  It's never been the case, but those sorts of made up talking points are the only things these types complaining seem to have to attempt to justify their frustrations at society, or something. There seems to be a lot of cognitive dissonance or just ignorance about the fact the U.S. has singular counties, essentially close to singular cities, that have the same population of 13 states combined. And, statistically, those in the lower population 13 states are more and more unable to meet the simple physical requirements of the U.S. military. To my knowledge, the past 5 or so years, the military has had serious recruitment issues because of things as simple as obesity metrics.
  - twofornone 5y ago
    Never been the case? The US was about 90% white until the 90s. As of 2017 it was still the case[0]. I think the cognitive dissonance is more on the side of so called "anti-racists" who are cheering on the implementation of explicit institutional racism ostensibly to correct for perceived institutional racism. You can't literally fight fire with fire. 0. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/09/10/the-changing-profile-of-the-u-s-military/%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2...
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > You can't literally fight fire with fire. That's literally an important technique for fighting fire, so you are literally wrong.
    - s5300 5y ago
      I believe he was speaking of the "small town" part. Of course, that in a nation with a majority white populace, its military will also be majority white Anyways, you're just here to argue in bad faith.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> The military was until recently carried primarily by white men from small town America The military has disproportionately been non-White for a long time (largely, because even while actively racist for most of its history, it was less racist than the rest of American society), despite the White segment of it being disproportionately small town. Its been disproportionately male, because it has been actively sexist and, unlike its racism, more actively sexist than the rest of society. > Now white maleness is effectively a career handicap when genitals, skin color, and sexual orientation are considered for promotion. Genitals, skin color, sexual orientation, and conformity with social norms of alignment of sex assigned at birth with gender presentation have always been a factor in military assignment, promotion, and discipline in the US. For most of the history of the US military being White was a commanding advantage in that, being male was a commanding advantage in some areas, and a bright-line legal requirement everywhere else, and until very recently not being a cisgender heterosexual was grounds for being excluded from the service and drummed out (and criminally prosecuted) if already in. The idea that these factors only started to matter when they stopped being a trump card for White cishet men is...amusing.
- refurb 5y ago
  That’s a very roundabout way of saying you agree with racial and gender discrimination.

ceejayoz 5y ago

Are you a lost time traveler? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9981 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9981

twofornone 5y ago
What do you think a diversity quota is, if not discrimination? Maybe you're suggesting that it's time for the supreme court to step in, given that these hiring and promotion practices are, as your link clearly states, illegal? This is pretty cut and dry. You may be supportive of D&I but by definition it is an exclusionary, discriminatory, a-meritocratic, and illegal policy. The fact that these quotas tend to be implicit does not change the legality (or morality) of the widespread practices.
- asbest0s 5y ago
  As a former enlisted member myself, I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, any attempt to bring attention to this in masturbatory echo chambers such as this will not be met well.
- Raidion 5y ago
  Do you think having different opinions, experiences, and backgrounds is something that should be left out of decision making? Can you see any value in making sure the army is diverse to make sure it still can recruit, integrate, and retain people from all over the US and not just people from one specific background? This is honestly a very grey area and could be taken too far, but there seems to be clear benefits to having armed forces that everyone feels represents them. And that's worth at least some impact on effectiveness, right?
  - angelzen 5y ago
    There are only 2 stable fixpoints: meritocracy and sectarianism, with meritocracy being merely metastable. Trouble is, sectarian armed force don't win wars. At worst they engage in civil war. Your logic is unassailable, sadly few people bother to acquiesce the consequences.
  - vimy 5y ago
    A rich black man and a rich white man have more in common, in thoughts and experiences, than a rich white man and a poor white man. Class is so much more important than race yet the Western world, especially the US, is obsessed by race.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      They’re heavily linked in the US. https://money.yahoo.com/black-americans-net-worth-is-one-seventh-of-whites-203317473.html https://money.yahoo.com/black-americans-net-worth-is-one-sev... > The average net worth of Black families is $142,330 — or just one-seventh of the $980,550 in wealth accumulated by white Americans, according to a new study from LendingTree that draws on data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the 2020 Economic Policy Institute report, and various Federal Reserve reports. > The median net worth of both shows similar disparities. The median wealth for Black families is $24,100, or about one-eighth of that for white families at $189,100, according to the study.

s5300 5y ago

Good friend of mine is a white male O-4 BN in the Navy, previously a marine, from a family of predominantly white men in the Navy/military in general, with female family members also in the military. He first started talking to me about this "perceived issue" you speak of back in the beginning of 2019. Has repeatedly stated is the most hilariously stupid white nationalist and incel-esque shit he's ever had to hear about or deal with Along with the fact that everybody he's observed as a marine and a Navy BN spouting off about it is typically an obnoxious douche who everybody hates and is generally incompetent at some of the easiest jobs our government provides citizens. So, after reading what you've posted, the theme of it seems to line up with his, his families, and all of his higher ranking friends observations - just another person butthurt about females and people who aren't white, likely because you feel you've somehow been wronged by them in life or have other issues you need therapy for. But go on about this being the issue, and not many of the clearly observered, defined, and reported on issues that the Navy/US Military in general is facing. Hint: one of them is white nationalists, and the poor quality of service/general incompetence and questions about loyalty that typically come with them. Losers is something I can recall him repeatedly referring to them as, but I'm not sure how appropriate that is for HN. And, since we're in the thread about the Bonhomme - I'll mention he has some very nice footage of the fire from Coronado bridge.

twofornone 5y ago
It's pretty gross that in light of clear evidence of widespread discrimination you dismiss legitimate complaints with generic and shallow accusations of inceldom, white nationalism, and incompetence. Reverse racism is still racism. Step back for a moment and consider what psychological effect such explicitly discriminatory policy may have on any demographic on the receiving end. Explicitly assigning disadvantages according to immutable characteristics fuels so called "white nationalism", as do blithe dismissals such as yours. You can't have it both ways - either you attempt to hire by merit or you acknowledge that you are motivating self-preserving movements in demographics which perceive discrimination. There's also a certain selection bias among those willing to complain. Generally those with good career prospects are far more likely to keep their heads down rather than risk repercussions for speaking against top down D&I pressure - so the fact that the loudest may not be stellar examples of good soldiering does not imply that this perceived discrimination is not more widespread among otherwise competent personell.

jay_kyburz 5y ago

I like how in the Chinese ad they don't even hide the fact that you might have to run along side the tanks while shells rain down on you. You would have to be mad to watch that video and think, yes that's the life for me!

User23 5y ago
I’m willing to bet at least ten times as many young men as young women think that’s a good idea.

rootusrootus 5y ago

> until recently carried primarily by white men from small town America How do you define recent? This was not the case when I was in the military almost 30 years ago.

s5300 5y ago
It's never been the case, but those sorts of made up talking points are the only things these types complaining seem to have to attempt to justify their frustrations at society, or something. There seems to be a lot of cognitive dissonance or just ignorance about the fact the U.S. has singular counties, essentially close to singular cities, that have the same population of 13 states combined. And, statistically, those in the lower population 13 states are more and more unable to meet the simple physical requirements of the U.S. military. To my knowledge, the past 5 or so years, the military has had serious recruitment issues because of things as simple as obesity metrics.
- twofornone 5y ago
  Never been the case? The US was about 90% white until the 90s. As of 2017 it was still the case[0]. I think the cognitive dissonance is more on the side of so called "anti-racists" who are cheering on the implementation of explicit institutional racism ostensibly to correct for perceived institutional racism. You can't literally fight fire with fire. 0. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/09/10/the-changing-profile-of-the-u-s-military/%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2...
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > You can't literally fight fire with fire. That's literally an important technique for fighting fire, so you are literally wrong.
  - s5300 5y ago
    I believe he was speaking of the "small town" part. Of course, that in a nation with a majority white populace, its military will also be majority white Anyways, you're just here to argue in bad faith.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> The military was until recently carried primarily by white men from small town America The military has disproportionately been non-White for a long time (largely, because even while actively racist for most of its history, it was less racist than the rest of American society), despite the White segment of it being disproportionately small town. Its been disproportionately male, because it has been actively sexist and, unlike its racism, more actively sexist than the rest of society. > Now white maleness is effectively a career handicap when genitals, skin color, and sexual orientation are considered for promotion. Genitals, skin color, sexual orientation, and conformity with social norms of alignment of sex assigned at birth with gender presentation have always been a factor in military assignment, promotion, and discipline in the US. For most of the history of the US military being White was a commanding advantage in that, being male was a commanding advantage in some areas, and a bright-line legal requirement everywhere else, and until very recently not being a cisgender heterosexual was grounds for being excluded from the service and drummed out (and criminally prosecuted) if already in. The idea that these factors only started to matter when they stopped being a trump card for White cishet men is...amusing.

refurb 5y ago
That’s a very roundabout way of saying you agree with racial and gender discrimination.