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I'm not convinced. The fact that young male monkeys choose firetrucks over dolls rather strongly indicates that the study is bogus and there is some (unconsciou

I'm not convinced. The fact that young male monkeys choose firetrucks over dolls rather strongly indicates that the study is bogus and there is some (unconscious) influence from the experimenter. How can monkeys instinctively know what a fire truck is? The explanation about females preferring faces is just a post-hoc rationalisation.

mensetmanusman 5y ago
They don’t know what it is, they know what it is not: a baby.
smegcicle 5y ago
you don't have to know what a firetruck is to know that it looks cool
simonh 5y ago
But surely if there is a clear difference in the data, we should be looking for an explanation, right? Of course it's possible for experimental methods to be flawed, but as the results from multiple studies pile up, that becomes less and less plausible as an explanation.
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  Read Berger(1966). This is reification in it's most basic form.
  - tmn 5y ago
    Could you clarify 'what' is the example of reification here?
alisonkisk 5y ago
A firetruck is not a face. How wouldn't a monkey know what a face is? Human babies don't know what a fire truck is either.
Levitz 5y ago
To what degree does a monkey know what a fire truck is, compared to a child? Yes the child might even understand that it's a vehicle, but as far as being a toy is concerned, it's a block with wheels, as long as the monkey is not pretending firefighters come and go from the fire truck (which children also don't do, unless it explicitly included small figurines, functional doors etc) I really don't see the problem.
tmn 5y ago
What specifically are you not convinced of?
bloqs 5y ago
Because one is a verifiable unusual and complex object (things) and another is seen as another of the same or similar species, activating the temporal lobe more (people). You don't have to comprehend or understand a firetruck to see it is a very different environmental object to another being.
pangolinplayer 5y ago
That people need a study to know these differences exist is the real head scratcher.
sandstrom 5y ago
If you are hung up on the firetruck, here is another one on newborn macaques preferring faces: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19669 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19669 Or this one, where adding testosterone to rhesus monkeys causes their female offspring to be "masculinized': https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/

mensetmanusman 5y ago

They don’t know what it is, they know what it is not: a baby.

smegcicle 5y ago

you don't have to know what a firetruck is to know that it looks cool

simonh 5y ago

But surely if there is a clear difference in the data, we should be looking for an explanation, right? Of course it's possible for experimental methods to be flawed, but as the results from multiple studies pile up, that becomes less and less plausible as an explanation.

kelseyfrog 5y ago
Read Berger(1966). This is reification in it's most basic form.
- tmn 5y ago
  Could you clarify 'what' is the example of reification here?

alisonkisk 5y ago

A firetruck is not a face. How wouldn't a monkey know what a face is? Human babies don't know what a fire truck is either.

Levitz 5y ago

To what degree does a monkey know what a fire truck is, compared to a child? Yes the child might even understand that it's a vehicle, but as far as being a toy is concerned, it's a block with wheels, as long as the monkey is not pretending firefighters come and go from the fire truck (which children also don't do, unless it explicitly included small figurines, functional doors etc) I really don't see the problem.

tmn 5y ago

What specifically are you not convinced of?

bloqs 5y ago

Because one is a verifiable unusual and complex object (things) and another is seen as another of the same or similar species, activating the temporal lobe more (people). You don't have to comprehend or understand a firetruck to see it is a very different environmental object to another being.

pangolinplayer 5y ago

That people need a study to know these differences exist is the real head scratcher.

sandstrom 5y ago

If you are hung up on the firetruck, here is another one on newborn macaques preferring faces: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19669 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19669 Or this one, where adding testosterone to rhesus monkeys causes their female offspring to be "masculinized': https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/