5 ms·

THEN this person has to hide/digest the guilt of their actions, knowing that they are immoral but still required by society. By hiding that guilt, this person

by realce 5y ago

THEN this person has to hide/digest the guilt of their actions, knowing that they are immoral but still required by society. By hiding that guilt, this person becomes disgusted by people who don't commit immoral acts to pay their mortgages, since every good action reminds them of what they're doing wrong.

VRay 5y ago
Haha, dude. I hate Facebook too, but you’re kidding yourself if anyone there thinks they’re evil. The employees just focus on how easy it is for non tech savvy people to share vacation and kid photos across the globe with each other through their service, and go to bed in their $1.2M condos with a smile every night
- baremetal 5y ago
  yeah thats why there isn't a string of leaks and whistleblowers, and even former upper management decrying what is going on at fb. oh wait..
- eevilspock 5y ago
  It's not about being "evil". People are very adept at making convenient self-serving justifications on-the-fly. For example the very same liberal parents who chastise conservatives for promoting racial inequality will cry murder when there are attempts to racially desegregate the school their child attends by changing admissions, and they'll come up with the perfect rational for this contradiction after the fact. They will put their child first, regardless of the fact that their child is already far ahead because of socio-economic advantages, and that the disadvantaged kid even with the better education is still going to be disadvantaged compared to their kid. It's even worse in a culture and economic system where selfishness is deemed a virtue. Here on HN, you can see such heavily self-serving bias in discussions like this, where the emphasis is entirely on the positive aspects and negative concerns are shot down: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28924751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28924751.
  - VRay 5y ago
    Amen I'd say it's fair to call the process by which people justify doing bad things as "evil". I just wanted to correct the notion that Facebook employees think of themselves as villains. Facebook is connecting people with each other. Amazon/Microsoft/Google are collecting usage data to improve their products. Amazon and Microsoft think it's such a benign thing to do that there's no need at all to allow people to see or opt out of this collection. Google thinks that providing visibility into what they're doing is more than enough to make up for it. Apple thinks that making it explicitly opt-in is enough to justify it. Defense contractors are keeping Americans safe and making the world a safer place. High-frequency trading firms are providing liquidity. Landlords are "housing providers" Etc etc
    - eevilspock 5y ago
      But whether or not you call it "evil", it is a moral failure, and deep down most people, including Facebook employees, know what they're doing is wrong. They look the other way, or shrug and say Everyone else is doing it, why should I lose out?, etc. Likewise most Google employees aren't proud that their high salaries are paid by advertising and the personal data collection for it -- deep down they know its a deal with the devil.
      - VRay 5y ago
        Where do you draw the line? You could probably feed a bunch of people in Africa if you worked at a nonprofit, lived a spartan lifestyle, and donated most of your salary to charity. Is it evil that you aren't doing that?
        eevilspock 5y ago
        Where you draw the line defines what kind of person you are, your values and your commitment to them. The reason shows like Squid Games is popular is that it's all about where people draw lines. Morality is all about choices, and your true morality isn't what you say, but what you do. The interesting things is that the people who are most committed, who are unwilling to compromise their values even if it means sacrifice*, are often invisible. They don't make waves. They just do the right thing quietly. There are very smart people who don't make a lot of money, who choose to become teachers, or find some other uncompromised occupation. Other people see them as crazy, or naive idealists. Our culture really tends to look down on those people, since material wealth is how everyone is measured. btw, I left my career in the tech industry and my high salary nine years ago, to work on social justice, to write, and to work with children. There are costs that don't bother me at all, like my ultra simple life living in a run-down rental. There are costs that hurt, but those have to do with living in a society where eschewing the benefits of capitalism isn't popular. Some analogies I've used: Imagine being a white person having 2021 views of race and racism, but you suddenly wake up in 1850, where even Abraham Lincoln is a white supremacist (he was!). People will shun you for voicing your 2021 views. You will be an outcast in the dominant white world. You might be able to find a home among black people, except they are slaves and will be afraid to associate with you. Or here's perhaps an easier analogy: Imagine that you one day wake up and feel deeply you can't eat meat anymore. It's your conscience. You deeply feel it is wrong. So you become vegan. Now imagine this was 50 years ago before veganism started to gain any traction. Again you would be isolated. People will look at you weird.

by realce 5y ago

VRay 5y ago

Haha, dude. I hate Facebook too, but you’re kidding yourself if anyone there thinks they’re evil. The employees just focus on how easy it is for non tech savvy people to share vacation and kid photos across the globe with each other through their service, and go to bed in their $1.2M condos with a smile every night

baremetal 5y ago
yeah thats why there isn't a string of leaks and whistleblowers, and even former upper management decrying what is going on at fb. oh wait..
eevilspock 5y ago
It's not about being "evil". People are very adept at making convenient self-serving justifications on-the-fly. For example the very same liberal parents who chastise conservatives for promoting racial inequality will cry murder when there are attempts to racially desegregate the school their child attends by changing admissions, and they'll come up with the perfect rational for this contradiction after the fact. They will put their child first, regardless of the fact that their child is already far ahead because of socio-economic advantages, and that the disadvantaged kid even with the better education is still going to be disadvantaged compared to their kid. It's even worse in a culture and economic system where selfishness is deemed a virtue. Here on HN, you can see such heavily self-serving bias in discussions like this, where the emphasis is entirely on the positive aspects and negative concerns are shot down: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28924751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28924751.
- VRay 5y ago
  Amen I'd say it's fair to call the process by which people justify doing bad things as "evil". I just wanted to correct the notion that Facebook employees think of themselves as villains. Facebook is connecting people with each other. Amazon/Microsoft/Google are collecting usage data to improve their products. Amazon and Microsoft think it's such a benign thing to do that there's no need at all to allow people to see or opt out of this collection. Google thinks that providing visibility into what they're doing is more than enough to make up for it. Apple thinks that making it explicitly opt-in is enough to justify it. Defense contractors are keeping Americans safe and making the world a safer place. High-frequency trading firms are providing liquidity. Landlords are "housing providers" Etc etc
  - eevilspock 5y ago
    But whether or not you call it "evil", it is a moral failure, and deep down most people, including Facebook employees, know what they're doing is wrong. They look the other way, or shrug and say Everyone else is doing it, why should I lose out?, etc. Likewise most Google employees aren't proud that their high salaries are paid by advertising and the personal data collection for it -- deep down they know its a deal with the devil.
    - VRay 5y ago
      Where do you draw the line? You could probably feed a bunch of people in Africa if you worked at a nonprofit, lived a spartan lifestyle, and donated most of your salary to charity. Is it evil that you aren't doing that?
      - eevilspock 5y ago
        Where you draw the line defines what kind of person you are, your values and your commitment to them. The reason shows like Squid Games is popular is that it's all about where people draw lines. Morality is all about choices, and your true morality isn't what you say, but what you do. The interesting things is that the people who are most committed, who are unwilling to compromise their values even if it means sacrifice*, are often invisible. They don't make waves. They just do the right thing quietly. There are very smart people who don't make a lot of money, who choose to become teachers, or find some other uncompromised occupation. Other people see them as crazy, or naive idealists. Our culture really tends to look down on those people, since material wealth is how everyone is measured. btw, I left my career in the tech industry and my high salary nine years ago, to work on social justice, to write, and to work with children. There are costs that don't bother me at all, like my ultra simple life living in a run-down rental. There are costs that hurt, but those have to do with living in a society where eschewing the benefits of capitalism isn't popular. Some analogies I've used: Imagine being a white person having 2021 views of race and racism, but you suddenly wake up in 1850, where even Abraham Lincoln is a white supremacist (he was!). People will shun you for voicing your 2021 views. You will be an outcast in the dominant white world. You might be able to find a home among black people, except they are slaves and will be afraid to associate with you. Or here's perhaps an easier analogy: Imagine that you one day wake up and feel deeply you can't eat meat anymore. It's your conscience. You deeply feel it is wrong. So you become vegan. Now imagine this was 50 years ago before veganism started to gain any traction. Again you would be isolated. People will look at you weird.