6 ms·

A great thought experiment, though not necessarily an entirely fictional one. Social housing schemes, and proposals for 'universal basic services', are common e

A great thought experiment, though not necessarily an entirely fictional one. Social housing schemes, and proposals for 'universal basic services', are common enough and ought to be the positive side to the deflation of the housing market. Mortgages currently dominate the average person's life.

an9n 5y ago
> Mortgages currently dominate the average person's life. Indeed, it's sickening, and there's a very well developed structure to stop the average person stepping outside of the system via a tiny house, van life etc.
- mlac 5y ago
  The average person does not want a tiny house or van life. So it’s not a well developed structure built for “the average person”. Tiny homes are the mobile home of this generation, except less widely adopted. But they will depreciate, widening the gap between those who chose to purchase a traditional house and those who chose a simpler approach. Van life and tiny homes are not suitable for 99.99% of families with children.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    You're dis-agreeing with the parent. The problem is that for almost everyone houses are unaffordable without mortgages and the only alternatives to it -- smaller homes, mobile homes, vandwelling are bad. But they're bad not because of something fundamental but because we make it artificially harder for them.
    - mlac 5y ago
      Thank you! That’s not how I interpreted that original post, but It’s not that small houses are bad. Small houses (as I’d define it 1000-1750 sq ft for a 3 bedroom) are great. But I still see it written as “if those structures were removed” that those alternatives are a suitable alternative to a stick-built house for the majority of people. I think they are all sub-optimal solutions that people should not be forced into unless they want to.
- dcolkitt 5y ago
  There’s literally nothing stopping the average person from doing that, besides their own preferences.
  - acdha 5y ago
    Also various laws and regulations: van life is incompatible with many cities and is incompatible with schooling for children, possibly even child welfare laws. Zoning restrictions mean tiny houses can’t be built in many places. Much of that is not unreasonable — e.g. I went to a high school which had a lot of children of migrant farm workers who were definitely held back by their parents’ need to migrate up and down California following the harvest. Stability has merit. What I would focus on are the zoning laws forcing single-family houses, lawns, vast amounts of parking, etc. since those increase the cost of housing significantly and reduce supply. There are many owners who would consider subdividing housing, tiny houses/granny flats/basement apartments/etc. but can’t because that is banned outright or requires things like street access and subsidized parking which aren’t compatible with the available space. Unfortunately, in the United States this also inevitably involves class and racism — the laws against density, people camping or living in vehicles, etc. usually trace back to fears of poor, often brown, people living outside of “their” neighborhoods and especially outnumbering the current residents. That sentiment is long-lived and hard to shake, no matter the professed politics of a community.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  Sounds like cope to me. "I'm stepping out of the system" is actually "I'm too poor to stay in the system".
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    Not necessarily, it could be a way to get away from constraint that forbids you to grow your life better. Even with money, staying into western dense urban cities only give you one kind of life.
  - baremetal 5y ago
    im not too poor to stay in the system. but i am building my own tiny house right now. i just do not think being dependent on the system is a good idea for my future. maybe it is for yours. i document some of my adventures here. https://www.instagram.com/l_eonine/ https://www.instagram.com/l_eonine/
    - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
      That's great but I hope we can agree that most of society wants a house with a garden and a family dog. Trying to put those people into a tiny house or camper would lead to the revolution Marx dreamed of.
      - baremetal 5y ago
        then i suggest people might want to learn how to build their own house. because the trends suggest housing affordability isnt returning anytime soon. i think thats about as anti-marx as it gets, no?
      - tryauuum 5y ago
        I absolutely do not want a big house with a garden, and I despise the idea of dog ownership. Maybe your statement is true for the American society though
  - Spivak 5y ago
    Or literally anyone who's like "I want a life where I haven't bet my ability to have shelter against 30 years of my income and my ability to stay healthy and gainfully employed." Like I'm a person who is part of this system because there's literally no other option. I want to get off Mr. Bone's wild ride but there's nothing really available to me.
- system16 5y ago
  More people are trying out van life than ever before, but most quickly wake up to the fact that the reality is a far cry from the fantasy portrayed on social media. After realizing it's 1% staring pensively at canyons and sunsets, and 90% looking for parking and washrooms, most treat it like a road trip than a permanent lifestyle.
agumonkey 5y ago
It's not thought experiment. Not long ago I was under state welfare and hosted near free. It changes how you approach your day. I was happily volunteering and working way more than people under salary (politics come into play and people start being jealous, and wanting more to do less because they don't want to be here, they "have to".. it's pain first system). Hence me saying, if people didn't have to pay rent, what would they do with their time ?
- VRay 5y ago
  I don’t think it’s necessarily the case, but I’m a little worried that a UBI utopia would end up being some sort of Judge Dredd hellscape I’ve taken long stretches off work and done all sorts of amazing, productive stuff during that time. I have friends whom I really respect completely fall apart when nobody’s ordering them around every day though.. they stop going outside, the lack of exercise and sunlight sends their meat suits into “depression mode”, and it’s a quick downward spiral I’m hoping that having a whole society oriented around it would result in a more positive outcome
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    That is quite true, I'm not fully pushing for UBI because of unplanned large scale social issues, but there needs to be a rebalancing of the system.
  - throwaway6734 5y ago
    Agree. We would definitely need some social structures the encourage people to productively use their time
    - jokethrowaway 5y ago
      Congratulations, you just invented capitalism.
      - agumonkey 5y ago
        depends on what kind of incentives if you make people seek calm and good social bonds (through cultural creations mostly) you may avoid capitalism runaways
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Mortgages currently dominate the average person's life. It looks like ~65% of households own a home, and about the same percentage of homes have a mortgage; the average household doesn't even have a mortgage.

an9n 5y ago

> Mortgages currently dominate the average person's life. Indeed, it's sickening, and there's a very well developed structure to stop the average person stepping outside of the system via a tiny house, van life etc.

mlac 5y ago
The average person does not want a tiny house or van life. So it’s not a well developed structure built for “the average person”. Tiny homes are the mobile home of this generation, except less widely adopted. But they will depreciate, widening the gap between those who chose to purchase a traditional house and those who chose a simpler approach. Van life and tiny homes are not suitable for 99.99% of families with children.
- Spivak 5y ago
  You're dis-agreeing with the parent. The problem is that for almost everyone houses are unaffordable without mortgages and the only alternatives to it -- smaller homes, mobile homes, vandwelling are bad. But they're bad not because of something fundamental but because we make it artificially harder for them.
  - mlac 5y ago
    Thank you! That’s not how I interpreted that original post, but It’s not that small houses are bad. Small houses (as I’d define it 1000-1750 sq ft for a 3 bedroom) are great. But I still see it written as “if those structures were removed” that those alternatives are a suitable alternative to a stick-built house for the majority of people. I think they are all sub-optimal solutions that people should not be forced into unless they want to.
dcolkitt 5y ago
There’s literally nothing stopping the average person from doing that, besides their own preferences.
- acdha 5y ago
  Also various laws and regulations: van life is incompatible with many cities and is incompatible with schooling for children, possibly even child welfare laws. Zoning restrictions mean tiny houses can’t be built in many places. Much of that is not unreasonable — e.g. I went to a high school which had a lot of children of migrant farm workers who were definitely held back by their parents’ need to migrate up and down California following the harvest. Stability has merit. What I would focus on are the zoning laws forcing single-family houses, lawns, vast amounts of parking, etc. since those increase the cost of housing significantly and reduce supply. There are many owners who would consider subdividing housing, tiny houses/granny flats/basement apartments/etc. but can’t because that is banned outright or requires things like street access and subsidized parking which aren’t compatible with the available space. Unfortunately, in the United States this also inevitably involves class and racism — the laws against density, people camping or living in vehicles, etc. usually trace back to fears of poor, often brown, people living outside of “their” neighborhoods and especially outnumbering the current residents. That sentiment is long-lived and hard to shake, no matter the professed politics of a community.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Sounds like cope to me. "I'm stepping out of the system" is actually "I'm too poor to stay in the system".
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Not necessarily, it could be a way to get away from constraint that forbids you to grow your life better. Even with money, staying into western dense urban cities only give you one kind of life.
- baremetal 5y ago
  im not too poor to stay in the system. but i am building my own tiny house right now. i just do not think being dependent on the system is a good idea for my future. maybe it is for yours. i document some of my adventures here. https://www.instagram.com/l_eonine/ https://www.instagram.com/l_eonine/
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    That's great but I hope we can agree that most of society wants a house with a garden and a family dog. Trying to put those people into a tiny house or camper would lead to the revolution Marx dreamed of.
    - baremetal 5y ago
      then i suggest people might want to learn how to build their own house. because the trends suggest housing affordability isnt returning anytime soon. i think thats about as anti-marx as it gets, no?
    - tryauuum 5y ago
      I absolutely do not want a big house with a garden, and I despise the idea of dog ownership. Maybe your statement is true for the American society though
- Spivak 5y ago
  Or literally anyone who's like "I want a life where I haven't bet my ability to have shelter against 30 years of my income and my ability to stay healthy and gainfully employed." Like I'm a person who is part of this system because there's literally no other option. I want to get off Mr. Bone's wild ride but there's nothing really available to me.
system16 5y ago
More people are trying out van life than ever before, but most quickly wake up to the fact that the reality is a far cry from the fantasy portrayed on social media. After realizing it's 1% staring pensively at canyons and sunsets, and 90% looking for parking and washrooms, most treat it like a road trip than a permanent lifestyle.

agumonkey 5y ago

It's not thought experiment. Not long ago I was under state welfare and hosted near free. It changes how you approach your day. I was happily volunteering and working way more than people under salary (politics come into play and people start being jealous, and wanting more to do less because they don't want to be here, they "have to".. it's pain first system). Hence me saying, if people didn't have to pay rent, what would they do with their time ?

VRay 5y ago
I don’t think it’s necessarily the case, but I’m a little worried that a UBI utopia would end up being some sort of Judge Dredd hellscape I’ve taken long stretches off work and done all sorts of amazing, productive stuff during that time. I have friends whom I really respect completely fall apart when nobody’s ordering them around every day though.. they stop going outside, the lack of exercise and sunlight sends their meat suits into “depression mode”, and it’s a quick downward spiral I’m hoping that having a whole society oriented around it would result in a more positive outcome
- agumonkey 5y ago
  That is quite true, I'm not fully pushing for UBI because of unplanned large scale social issues, but there needs to be a rebalancing of the system.
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  Agree. We would definitely need some social structures the encourage people to productively use their time
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    Congratulations, you just invented capitalism.
    - agumonkey 5y ago
      depends on what kind of incentives if you make people seek calm and good social bonds (through cultural creations mostly) you may avoid capitalism runaways

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Mortgages currently dominate the average person's life. It looks like ~65% of households own a home, and about the same percentage of homes have a mortgage; the average household doesn't even have a mortgage.