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First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs
- fijiaarone 5y agoThere's a perfectly logical, very probable, quite natural explanation, but the "researchers" claiming that their impossible, ridiculous, unfounded explanation can't possibly be wrong because..."muh politics"
- rhernandez35 5y agoWhat are you trying to say?
- Dangeranger 5y agoInstead of posting a hyperbolic comment, how about you describe what the “perfectly logical, very probable, quite natural explanation” is.
- simiones 5y agoIs condor parthenogenesis a major political issue in the United States?
- Razengan 5y agoEverything is a major political issue in the United States.
- the_af 5y agoI don't see anything political or absurd in this article, what do you mean?
- rsynnott 5y agoI assume your logical probable natural explanation is that another male condor visited? This probably isn't as logical or probable as you think; they're critically endangered and all known examples would be DNA sequenced. Parthenogenesis is known to happen occasionally in birds, so it doesn't really seem all that out-there. > impossible, ridiculous, unfounded explanation ... What makes you think it's any of these? > can't possibly be wrong because..."muh politics" I may just be out of date, but I hadn't realised that the reproductive habits of condors had been particularly politicised.
- sharmin123 5y agoAre There Top Signs of a Cheating Lover? What To do Then?: https://www.hackerslist.co/are-there-top-signs-of-a-cheating-lover-what-to-do-then/ https://www.hackerslist.co/are-there-top-signs-of-a-cheating...
- HenryKissinger 5y agoCondors. Condors are on the verge of extinction. If I was to create a flock of condors on this island, you wouldn't have anything to say. Also: > However, in a surprising twist, they found that neither bird was genetically related to a male—meaning both chicks were biologically fatherless; and accounted for the first two instances of asexual reproduction, or parthenogenesis, to be confirmed in the California condor species. Life, uh, finds a way.
- cromwellian 5y agoDamn, you beat me to it. :)
- dmead 5y agowell, there it is.
- BurningFrog 5y agoSo this is essentially Condors cloning themselves.
- HenryKissinger 5y agoHow does it work? I don't know how condors regulate their internal functions. As a human, I can control my muscles and my breathing, but I can't control, say, my digestion, my liver, my heart beat (except indirectly by either relaxing or doing stressful activities). How would a bird "flip the switch" and initiate asexual reproduction?
- namanyayg 5y agoHow can anyone answer a question about the subjective experience of a bird? :) If I had to guess, it could be a subconscious switch happening based on environmental and mood factors, similiar to how human pregnancies can miscarry in times of extreme stress.
- mavhc 5y agoLack of chemicals from the male to inhibit the process probably
- simiones 5y agoInterestingly, in this case males were in fact available - it just seems based on genetic studies that they didn't participate in these particular chicks (the mothers went on to have other chicks through normal reproduction).
- the_af 5y agoI don't know the answers to your questions, but parthenogenesis is confirmed to happen in other organisms. So I presume it could follow an analogous mechanism with condors.
- bencollier49 5y agoSo in birds, sex chromosome arrangement is a reverse of what we have in humans. Their males are ZZ and the female is ZW. Which is why only males appear from this parthenogenesis.
- rory 5y ago> Which is why only males appear from this parthenogenesis Could you explain the mechanism? If the female has both chromosomes, why couldn't it produce offspring with both?
- smiley1437 5y agoThe mostly likely path to parthenogenesis in a ZW female is making ZZ and WW offspring, and the WW is usually not viable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Sex_of_the_offspring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Sex_of_the_off...
- semenko 5y agoThe mechanisms of parthonenogensis aren't fully characterized, but at a high level, it occurs in a secondary oocyte during meiosis II -- the oocyte only starts out with a Z or W chromosome. It's perhaps best shown in this figure: https://rep.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/rep/155/6/images/REP-17-0728fig1.jpeg https://rep.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/rep/155/6/image... (Via this paper: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29559496/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29559496/)
- s1artibartfast 5y agoIf the females are ZW, why can't they make WW or ZW?
- simiones 5y agoZW is less likely because normally parthenogenesis starts with a haploid egg cell (Z or W) that undergoes meiosis alone, copying its own chromosomes - becoming ZZ if it started as Z and WW if it started as W. WW is normally not viable, just like YY in mammals, so the most likely case of parthenogenesis by far is ZZ, male.
- bicx 5y agoQuite the insult to the male condors. They were housed with the females, and but the females biologically opted for cloning themselves instead.
- adolph 5y ago[Condorman] did poorly at the box office. Disney reportedly lost $9.5 million on the picture. The disappointing financial returns from Condorman, along with three other flop films, contributed to Disney's poor financial performance in 1981. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorman
- the_af 5y agoAside for the title "Condorman", how is this movie relevant for the article we are discussing?
- Maursault 5y agoIncorrect film reference. Below is a correct film reference quote for this article. Mr. Liggett: Now there seems to be a lot of confusion on this next question: asexual reproduction. Could someone tell me please who first suggested the idea of reproduction without sex? [1] David Lightman: Ah-heh. [whispers something to a classmate] Jennifer: [overhearing, Jennifer starts to laugh] Mr. Liggett: [turns around and sees Jennifer giggling] Miss Mack! What is so amusing? Jennifer: I... [Jennifer breaks up into laughter again and turns to look at David, who puts on a show of mock innocence] Mr. Liggett: Alright, Lightman. Maybe you could tell us who first suggested the idea of reproduction without sex. David Lightman: Umm... Your wife? [the class erupts into laughter] Mr. Liggett: [pointing to the door] Get out, Lightman. Get out. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwDbgE54QYE&t=1m18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwDbgE54QYE&t=1m18s [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bonnet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bonnet
- lainga 5y agoMale clones of themselves even!
- boomboomsubban 5y agoDo condors generally have one egg at a time or were there other eggs hatched at the same time with a male parent? Do they think the two bird's early deaths were related to their parthenogenesis, and did the 8 year old one parent any children? On that note, what was the gender of the unfertilized chicks?
- jaqalopes 5y agoApologies for the low-effort comment, but this really freaks me out. I had no idea birds could reproduce asexually! That's crazy! Feels like an unanswerable question, but: could we ever see something like this in mammals? A virgin birth, for lack of a better phrase?
- MisterTea 5y agoIt's been proposed that artificial sperm could be fashioned from a woman's DNA. I suppose a child born from both a mothers egg and "sperm" could be considered a self made clone.
- simiones 5y agoAccording to wikipedia, it does occasionally happen that a human egg cell undergoes parthenogenesis and starts developing, but as far as has been recorded, the fetus is never viable and is usually regarded as a type of tumor called a teratoma; occasionally, this does lead to some fetus-like shape of the tumor, in which case it is known as a fetiform teratoma. Interestingly, there are a handful of cases of functioning human individuals who have cell lines in their body that are the result of parthenogenesis: an egg cell starts dividing by itself, and is fertilized only after this process has started. Next, the feritilized cell line develops normally, while the unfertilized cell line keeps developing as well but in limited ways - in the first known case, the white blood cells of a boy were found to be entirely derived from his mother, while other cell lines were normal XY cells inherited from both parents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Humans
- simiones 5y agoAlso found a medical article describing a clinical case and also making the parthenogenesis link. Caution when clicking, the article also contains some photos of the teratoma, which are slightly disturbing! https://meridian.allenpress.com/aplm/article/130/10/1552/459697/Fetiform-Teratoma-Homunculus https://meridian.allenpress.com/aplm/article/130/10/1552/459...
- dnautics 5y ago
- hristov 5y agoI think it is far more likely the researchers screwed up here.
- lmkg 5y agoParthenogenesis is more common in the animal kingdom than you might expect.
- Symmetry 5y agoAt least part time parthenogenesis. Eukaryotic species sometimes go all in on asexual reproduction but almost always die out in a few million years due to not being able to evolve along with changing conditions.
- irrational 5y agoHmm, all birds are dinosaurs. It’s been a long time since I last saw Jurassic Park, but wasn’t something like this a plot line in the film?
- Dangeranger 5y agoYes, it is exactly this plot line for how the dinosaurs were able to reproduce. All the animals were selected to be female to prevent natural reproduction.
- iammiles 5y agoThere is, but if I remember correctly this was due to using frog DNA to fill in missing DNA gaps.
- handrous 5y agoSame explanation's used in the novel, too.
- simiones 5y agoThe plotline there, as far as I remember, was that bullfrog DNA meant that some female dinosaurs could actually morph to become male and reproduce with the females (this is something that happens in some fish, amphibians, and even reptiles, where sex is not genetically determined).
- wil421 5y agoGrouper are all born females but they have both male/female organs at birth. The largest females will turn into males.
- AutumnCurtain 5y agoCorrect, and they had a designed lysine deficiency that was supposed to make them reliant on human-given dietary supplements to live. By consuming lysine-rich foods they were able to live without humans and some gradually changed sex to become male, leading to viable reproductive groups on the island.
- inside65 5y agoMany would argue this already occurred with Jesus, born from the virgin Mary.
- simiones 5y agoMost Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary. It would be technically correct that this was parthenogenesis, but it is a completely different... mechanism. Most non-Christians, even if they believe Jesus was a true historical figure, do not believe that his mother was a virgin.
- mistrial9 5y agothis is complicated, nuanced and not literal; it is a typical thing for critics to latch on to, so let's be wise-cautious with the exposition here at YNews, please
- simiones 5y agoAbsolutely. I wasn't trying to criticize anyone's beliefs, and I hope I didn't come across as such, and sincerely apologize if it did. My only point was exactly that it's not a great idea to take a religious experience and analyze it as an example of a basic biological phenomenon.
- anunnymouse 5y ago'this is complicated, nuanced and not literal' - arn't most things though? At least the person you are replying to started their comment with a weasel word - you're the one making the categorical statement about whether it is literal.
- yupper32 5y agoMiracles are absolutely (supposed to be) literal. It's a requirement for Sainthood, for example.
- Razengan 5y ago
- DocFeind 5y agoI can't explain how stoked I am about this, I was in SanDiego when they were on the verge of extinction, even got the chance to go behind the scenes for the original breeding program. Knowing nature refuses to let them fade away even without our intervention is epicly awesome news.
- darkwizard42 5y agoIf you have a chance, check out the breeding program at The Peregrine Fund near Boise, ID. We were able to stop there on a road trip and it was really remarkable how many breeding pairs they have. As a fan of birds of prey they also have several eagle and hawk varieties and breed a significant number of Peregrine falcons as well! https://www.peregrinefund.org/visit https://www.peregrinefund.org/visit
- penneyd 5y agoUnfortunately both of the condors did have some documented health issues. SB260, a male hatched at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park in 2001, died two years later after being released into the wild—he was always small and did not integrate well with the wild birds. SB517, a male hatched at Los Angeles Zoo in 2009, had a curved spine and trouble walking. He was never released into the wild and died in captivity at about age eight. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/10/california-condors-are-capable-virgin-birth/620517/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/10/californ...
- guerreroguy 5y agoThat's nuts
- voz_ 5y agoI was reading the wikipedia article, and this line "Use of an electrical or chemical stimulus can produce the beginning of the process of parthenogenesis in the asexual development of viable offspring.[97]" Really stood out to me. It seems like there are stimuli that can trigger this process (either naturally or induced). I wonder if learning about those pathways/approaches/(APIs?) can unlock manual triggering of other behaviors (like telling an Immune system to calm down during allergies / cytokine storm, or spurring or stopping growth of certain cells...)
- penneyd 5y agoThis article has a bit more detail and describes the health issues these birds experienced https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/10/california-condors-are-capable-virgin-birth/620517/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/10/californ... "both of the condors did have some documented health issues. SB260, a male hatched at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park in 2001, died two years later after being released into the wild—he was always small and did not integrate well with the wild birds. SB517, a male hatched at Los Angeles Zoo in 2009, had a curved spine and trouble walking. He was never released into the wild and died in captivity at about age eight."
- dang 5y agoRecent and related: The first report of asexual reproduction in California condors - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29050435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29050435 - Oct 2021 (16 comments)
- dredmorbius 5y agoFor those thinking "Dupe", this specific submission seems to have hit the 2nd chance queue, as the item was submitted 2 days ago. Meaning it's not actually a duplicate. Algolia shows the original submission date, at least for now: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=false&query=%22First%20confirmed%20hatchings%20of%20two%20California%20condor%20chicks%20from%20unfertilized%20eggs%22&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=fa...
- nitrogen 5y agoIt appears there was a related story though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29070133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29070133
- dredmorbius 5y agoI tend to discount discussions below a certain threshold. (What threshold is hard to say, though probably in the 20--40 range. Of course, interesting and salient comments can occur at any level. Perhaps more concentrated in smaller discussions.)
- LadyCailin 5y agoLife uh.. finds a way.
- abotsis 5y agoReally? No “life will find a way?” memes or quotes?
- LadyCailin 5y agoI made the joke but got downvoted :(
- ipunchghosts 5y agoCan someone ELI5 how this works and why it is happening now?