5 ms·

I mean I do. EFF, Wikimedia, ACLU (Only EFF is really for this particular issue though)

by Grimm1 5y ago

gruez 5y ago
>Wikimedia that's probably the least worthy of the ones in the list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_Cancer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_C...
spullara 5y ago
ACLU lawyers are helping Signal with this.
- Grimm1 5y ago
  Even better then!
lettergram 5y ago
I stopped supporting the ACLU when they started doing this: Fighting against due process: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/see-you-court-aclu-sues-betsy-devos-over-new-campus-n1206981 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/see-you-court-aclu-sues... claiming there's no men: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1196877415810813955 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1196877415810813955 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1199725066302308354 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1199725066302308354 Telling families to discuss pronouns: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1250795126584217602 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1250795126584217602 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1453779768063766529 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1453779768063766529 I'm all for defending freedom of expression, religion, speech, etc. But this is weighing into topics that aren't really about freedom and in some cases they're actively fighting against freedom. AKA it's become way more political and one sided.
- Bud 5y ago
  In other words, you're transphobic and you think everyone else should go along with you. To put it rather mildly, that's not what ACLU is about and that's not even what they should be about. You don't get to decide what is "really" about freedom. You shouldn't try. Leave that to the people whose rights are being threatened in the specific case in question.
  - willhinsa 5y ago
    My free speech rights are being threatened. Does it matter what identity merit badges I own to have rights? You may be surprised what group I ostensibly am one of, and yet I find their pushing of this anti-free speech to be atrocious.
    - kelnos 5y ago
      Asking people to not be transphobic threatens your free speech rights? Way to take something not even remotely about you and get offended by it.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        Perhaps it’s offensive to the other side being forced to accept someone born the opposite sex as exactly equivalent? Perhaps it has nothing to do with judging them or their lifestyle? Perhaps by the same logic they shouldn’t care about grouping themselves forcibly into a group their offending at least some of the members of?
        tekknik 5y ago
        Interesting that this got flagged but nobody provided a counter argument. Cancel culture at it again!
  - pclmulqdq 5y ago
    My name is gender-ambiguous but I am pretty strongly male-presenting in person. People I meet over email/text communication often misgender me. Before 2016, when I met those people in person, they would joke about it. Today, it terrifies them that I might tell someone or escalate it, and I have gotten profuse apologies related to the pronouns. I don't like that this sort of thing terrifies people. It creates a real bias in people's minds against working with anyone whose gender they don't know. The ACLU used to agree with me.
- silisili 5y ago
  Good sources, thanks for sharing. I didn't know a lot about the ACLU prior to this thread(other than in the news), but I agree - this is way beyond the scope of what the ACLU has been known for for years. Is there some other group that sticks to more neutrally standing up for folks, politics be damned?
- Talanes 5y ago
  From the descriptions you gave, I did not expect most of those links to end up being "The ACLU harmlessly addresses a trans issue in passing." I think there's an argument to be made for the ACLU becoming increasingly performative, with catchy Twitter slogans edging out the real work, but this isn't it.
  - lettergram 5y ago
    There is no “harmlessly addressing” the trans issue. People feeling uncomfortable with their bodies and performing mutilation is sad. Some people remove their feet as a kinda fetish. Trans people try to look like something else to make themselves feel normal (evidence is that’s not super effective, but that’s beside the point). The main issue isn’t that. People can do what they want in my opinion. It’s the compelled speech that the ACLU is promoting. “You have to use someone’s pronouns” is the exact opposite of free speech. It’s about as authoritarian a position as you can take. Imo pronouns are even more insidious because (a) they can change by the day and (b) you rarely use someone’s pronouns with said person, so other people have to “enforce” the proper pronoun use. No, civil liberties has nothing to do with people using someone’s pronouns. It has to do with the freedom to say what you want to say, not compel others. ACLU is now on the side of compelled speech.
    - Talanes 5y ago
      Really hard to take your grievances seriously under all that hate speech. This isn't me policing your speech, by the way, saying that you shouldn't say something isn't the same as saying you shouldn't be able to say something. Is the ACLU actively trying to force you to use specific pronouns, or is that just something they say because it's good social media optics?
- elliekelly 5y ago
  The tweet in which you allege they’re “claiming there’s [sic] no men” is actually saying the exact opposite? It’s saying there are many different types of men.
  - hnuser847 5y ago
    A man is an adult male human.
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      Indeed, much like a bull is an adult male cattle or a rooster an adult male chicken. Can someone please reply with a clear description of why this isn't true?
- amatecha 5y ago
  Trans rights are human rights, and entirely relevant to and tied in with civil liberties. Why do you have a problem with people identifying as what feels right to them? Who cares? It doesn't harm anyone. Oh no, that person identifies as "she/her"?! I'm _offended_!! Come on, that's just embarrassing. If it's not relevant to you and you're not going to bother trying to understand it or empathize with it, scroll past. The fight for everyone to live their life without prejudice and discrimination is a just one.
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    I'm offended at the hijacking of my language and the blind insistence that the definitions of words have changed and that biological sex isn't a thing. The world "man" has always first and foremost meant "adult male human" (like "rooster" means "adult male chicken"). "Trans men are men" is therefore a contradiction in terms. I don't mind trans people existing, they clearly do, and I certainly don't have a "phobia". "Transman" or "transwoman" seem perfectly adequate terms to describe them. In so far as what people should be called, it has clearly always been a negotiation. If you say "Hello, my name is Alice" I'd be inclined to call you such. Your actions might however change my mind, and I might select a more vulgar, or more affectionate word. Yes it's polite to call people what they'd like to be called. But it's tyrannical to make politeness mandatory.
- katbyte 5y ago
  you just gave me a bunch of reasons to start supporting them...
revscat 5y ago
Democratic Socialists also have a good track record here.

I mean I do. EFF, Wikimedia, ACLU (Only EFF is really for this particular issue though)

by Grimm1 5y ago

I mean I do. EFF, Wikimedia, ACLU (Only EFF is really for this particular issue though)

>Wikimedia that's probably the least worthy of the ones in the list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_Cancer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_C...

spullara 5y ago

ACLU lawyers are helping Signal with this.

Grimm1 5y ago
Even better then!

lettergram 5y ago

I stopped supporting the ACLU when they started doing this: Fighting against due process: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/see-you-court-aclu-sues-betsy-devos-over-new-campus-n1206981 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/see-you-court-aclu-sues... claiming there's no men: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1196877415810813955 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1196877415810813955 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1199725066302308354 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1199725066302308354 Telling families to discuss pronouns: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1250795126584217602 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1250795126584217602 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1453779768063766529 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1453779768063766529 I'm all for defending freedom of expression, religion, speech, etc. But this is weighing into topics that aren't really about freedom and in some cases they're actively fighting against freedom. AKA it's become way more political and one sided.

Bud 5y ago
In other words, you're transphobic and you think everyone else should go along with you. To put it rather mildly, that's not what ACLU is about and that's not even what they should be about. You don't get to decide what is "really" about freedom. You shouldn't try. Leave that to the people whose rights are being threatened in the specific case in question.
- willhinsa 5y ago
  My free speech rights are being threatened. Does it matter what identity merit badges I own to have rights? You may be surprised what group I ostensibly am one of, and yet I find their pushing of this anti-free speech to be atrocious.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    Asking people to not be transphobic threatens your free speech rights? Way to take something not even remotely about you and get offended by it.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      Perhaps it’s offensive to the other side being forced to accept someone born the opposite sex as exactly equivalent? Perhaps it has nothing to do with judging them or their lifestyle? Perhaps by the same logic they shouldn’t care about grouping themselves forcibly into a group their offending at least some of the members of?
      - tekknik 5y ago
        Interesting that this got flagged but nobody provided a counter argument. Cancel culture at it again!
- pclmulqdq 5y ago
  My name is gender-ambiguous but I am pretty strongly male-presenting in person. People I meet over email/text communication often misgender me. Before 2016, when I met those people in person, they would joke about it. Today, it terrifies them that I might tell someone or escalate it, and I have gotten profuse apologies related to the pronouns. I don't like that this sort of thing terrifies people. It creates a real bias in people's minds against working with anyone whose gender they don't know. The ACLU used to agree with me.
silisili 5y ago
Good sources, thanks for sharing. I didn't know a lot about the ACLU prior to this thread(other than in the news), but I agree - this is way beyond the scope of what the ACLU has been known for for years. Is there some other group that sticks to more neutrally standing up for folks, politics be damned?
Talanes 5y ago
From the descriptions you gave, I did not expect most of those links to end up being "The ACLU harmlessly addresses a trans issue in passing." I think there's an argument to be made for the ACLU becoming increasingly performative, with catchy Twitter slogans edging out the real work, but this isn't it.
- lettergram 5y ago
  There is no “harmlessly addressing” the trans issue. People feeling uncomfortable with their bodies and performing mutilation is sad. Some people remove their feet as a kinda fetish. Trans people try to look like something else to make themselves feel normal (evidence is that’s not super effective, but that’s beside the point). The main issue isn’t that. People can do what they want in my opinion. It’s the compelled speech that the ACLU is promoting. “You have to use someone’s pronouns” is the exact opposite of free speech. It’s about as authoritarian a position as you can take. Imo pronouns are even more insidious because (a) they can change by the day and (b) you rarely use someone’s pronouns with said person, so other people have to “enforce” the proper pronoun use. No, civil liberties has nothing to do with people using someone’s pronouns. It has to do with the freedom to say what you want to say, not compel others. ACLU is now on the side of compelled speech.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    Really hard to take your grievances seriously under all that hate speech. This isn't me policing your speech, by the way, saying that you shouldn't say something isn't the same as saying you shouldn't be able to say something. Is the ACLU actively trying to force you to use specific pronouns, or is that just something they say because it's good social media optics?
elliekelly 5y ago
The tweet in which you allege they’re “claiming there’s [sic] no men” is actually saying the exact opposite? It’s saying there are many different types of men.
- hnuser847 5y ago
  A man is an adult male human.
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    Indeed, much like a bull is an adult male cattle or a rooster an adult male chicken. Can someone please reply with a clear description of why this isn't true?
amatecha 5y ago
Trans rights are human rights, and entirely relevant to and tied in with civil liberties. Why do you have a problem with people identifying as what feels right to them? Who cares? It doesn't harm anyone. Oh no, that person identifies as "she/her"?! I'm _offended_!! Come on, that's just embarrassing. If it's not relevant to you and you're not going to bother trying to understand it or empathize with it, scroll past. The fight for everyone to live their life without prejudice and discrimination is a just one.
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  I'm offended at the hijacking of my language and the blind insistence that the definitions of words have changed and that biological sex isn't a thing. The world "man" has always first and foremost meant "adult male human" (like "rooster" means "adult male chicken"). "Trans men are men" is therefore a contradiction in terms. I don't mind trans people existing, they clearly do, and I certainly don't have a "phobia". "Transman" or "transwoman" seem perfectly adequate terms to describe them. In so far as what people should be called, it has clearly always been a negotiation. If you say "Hello, my name is Alice" I'd be inclined to call you such. Your actions might however change my mind, and I might select a more vulgar, or more affectionate word. Yes it's polite to call people what they'd like to be called. But it's tyrannical to make politeness mandatory.
katbyte 5y ago
you just gave me a bunch of reasons to start supporting them...

revscat 5y ago

Democratic Socialists also have a good track record here.