5 ms·

I would say that's probably something specific to your set up, and you may want to try some more apps, or ask those developers of your apps what their plans are

by md8z 5y ago

I would say that's probably something specific to your set up, and you may want to try some more apps, or ask those developers of your apps what their plans are. If you use Plasma, then you are using some Qt Quick software. Currently only the GNOME extensions panel is ported to GTK4, but more things are aimed for GNOME 42. In Firefox you need to enable webrender which is still beta but should be stabilized soon. I used VA-API as an example because that is another thing that only works locally and doesn't touch X. If you are using VA-API to output video to an X window then it explicitly won't send the original compressed video stream because the point of VA-API is to use hardware decompression. If you want to stream video then X and VA-API are both the wrong tool, you have to use something like gstreamer or phonon. "Cairo is also backed by X rendering and this is the default." This is incorrect, Cairo X rendering only happens if you use the Cairo Xlib surface, which GTK3 only uses in some circumstances. Sure, maybe you're using a lot of applications don't use GL or Vulkan now. But if they are being actively developed, they are probably actively moving towards it. We can revise my original comment if you think it was wrong and want to make it more relevant to your situation: The "vast majority of cases" has moved to using GL or Vulkan or are taking steps to move towards it.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago
Well, it is a big difference. Someone was saying below that the vast majority of rendering was done "client-side" since 2000s, and it actually couldn't be farther from the truth. Even in 2021, the vast majority of of programs are still rendering server-side. And, I have also been reading the claims of programs going to switch to OpenGL "any time soon" since the 2000s, with people backing out of the idea always due to "drivers" or the like. My experience trying to accelerate 2d programs with OpenGL has always been a disaster anyway. Maybe Vulkan is more suited to 2d rendering, but I would be surprised. That is why I don't believe in that argument. Server-side rendering _is_ working as of today. Most programs do not use OpenGL at all. Wayland is breaking all of this; it's not that it was already broken. > If you use Plasma, then you are using some Qt Quick software. I was perusing the KDE source and the only program I could find is plasma-widgets. Not surprising: the only program in the entire KDE desktop that uses Qt Quick is a widgets program. It's basically a layering program. > Currently only the GNOME extensions panel is ported to GTK4 I use latest released version of Gnome and it is not. > Cairo X rendering only happens if you use the Cairo Xlib surface, which GTK3 only uses in some circumstances. i.e. ALWAYS when using X as backend. It is the default. What else are they going to use, the PostScript backend?
- md8z 5y ago
  "And, I have also been reading the claims of programs going to switch to OpenGL 'any time soon' since the 2000s, with people backing out of the idea always due to 'drivers' or the like." I really don't know what else to tell you. Like I said, GTK4 and Qt are already using it. Chrome/Electron is using it, and Firefox will have it very soon. Wayland didn't break anything here, that and improvements in the drivers were just the missing pieces to finally complete the transition. Really, developers have been trying to ditch X for an extremely long time, you just said you've been hearing them talk about it for 20 years. Well as you know it takes a long time to rebuild everything. "I was perusing the KDE source and the only program I could find is plasma-widgets" I can think of several: KDE Connect, KSysGuard, System Settings, Kamoso, Kongress, there are more but I can't remember all of them! And yes, the entire shell also uses QML and Qt Quick. "I use latest released version of Gnome and it is not." This happened in GNOME 40 so your distro may be behind. See some docs from like 6 months ago: https://gjs.guide/extensions/upgrading/gnome-shell-40.html#prefs https://gjs.guide/extensions/upgrading/gnome-shell-40.html#p... "i.e. ALWAYS when using X as backend. It is the default. What else are they going to use, the PostScript backend? " No, the image backend is probably what you would consider the default because it works everywhere and can be used for off-screen rendering. In my experience Cairo Xlib surfaces are actually pretty uncommon because client side operations are done so frequently.
  - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
    > I really don't know what else to tell you. Like I said, GTK4 and Qt are already using it. Chrome/Electron is using it, and Firefox will have it very soon. Well, then don't repeat exactly the same argument. The point is that most desktop software _as of this day_ does not use client-side rendering, and even less desktop software uses OpenGL for rendering. Most of them are using plain classic widgets. We find some exceptions, but this is hardly enough to claim that most desktop software uses OpenGL, not in 2020, much less in 2000s. > I can think of several: KDE Connect, KSysGuard, System Settings, Kamoso, Kongress, While KDE Connect and Kongress do have some qml for the interface ( https://invent.kde.org/deepakarjariya/kdeconnect-kde/-/tree/master/app/qml https://invent.kde.org/deepakarjariya/kdeconnect-kde/-/tree/... ) , I have not been able to find any QML whatsoever for the rest (e.g. https://github.com/KDE/ksysguard https://github.com/KDE/ksysguard ). Kongress looks like a widget anyway. You can easily recognize these programs by how poorly they integrate with the rest of KDE, and I definitely do not see them with any frequency at all. > This happened in GNOME 40 so your distro may be behind. So, apparently, gnome-shell uses it through GJS, which is why I can't find any binary linking directly to gtk4. It's still literally one user. > No, the image backend is probably what you would consider the default because it works everywhere and can be used for off-screen rendering. The xlib backend is obviously also capable of off-screen rendering, otherwise all hell would break loose. And the xlib backend is still the default. Seriously: https://github.com/GNOME/gtk/blob/master/gdk/x11/gdksurface-x11.c https://github.com/GNOME/gtk/blob/master/gdk/x11/gdksurface-... . Why don't you just try? It's not hard to get into a situation where you don't have a working OpenGL environment and _all_ software still works. It's not hard to measure the bandwidth used for indirect X. Etc. Etc.

by md8z 5y ago

AshamedCaptain 5y ago

Well, it is a big difference. Someone was saying below that the vast majority of rendering was done "client-side" since 2000s, and it actually couldn't be farther from the truth. Even in 2021, the vast majority of of programs are still rendering server-side. And, I have also been reading the claims of programs going to switch to OpenGL "any time soon" since the 2000s, with people backing out of the idea always due to "drivers" or the like. My experience trying to accelerate 2d programs with OpenGL has always been a disaster anyway. Maybe Vulkan is more suited to 2d rendering, but I would be surprised. That is why I don't believe in that argument. Server-side rendering _is_ working as of today. Most programs do not use OpenGL at all. Wayland is breaking all of this; it's not that it was already broken. > If you use Plasma, then you are using some Qt Quick software. I was perusing the KDE source and the only program I could find is plasma-widgets. Not surprising: the only program in the entire KDE desktop that uses Qt Quick is a widgets program. It's basically a layering program. > Currently only the GNOME extensions panel is ported to GTK4 I use latest released version of Gnome and it is not. > Cairo X rendering only happens if you use the Cairo Xlib surface, which GTK3 only uses in some circumstances. i.e. ALWAYS when using X as backend. It is the default. What else are they going to use, the PostScript backend?

md8z 5y ago
"And, I have also been reading the claims of programs going to switch to OpenGL 'any time soon' since the 2000s, with people backing out of the idea always due to 'drivers' or the like." I really don't know what else to tell you. Like I said, GTK4 and Qt are already using it. Chrome/Electron is using it, and Firefox will have it very soon. Wayland didn't break anything here, that and improvements in the drivers were just the missing pieces to finally complete the transition. Really, developers have been trying to ditch X for an extremely long time, you just said you've been hearing them talk about it for 20 years. Well as you know it takes a long time to rebuild everything. "I was perusing the KDE source and the only program I could find is plasma-widgets" I can think of several: KDE Connect, KSysGuard, System Settings, Kamoso, Kongress, there are more but I can't remember all of them! And yes, the entire shell also uses QML and Qt Quick. "I use latest released version of Gnome and it is not." This happened in GNOME 40 so your distro may be behind. See some docs from like 6 months ago: https://gjs.guide/extensions/upgrading/gnome-shell-40.html#prefs https://gjs.guide/extensions/upgrading/gnome-shell-40.html#p... "i.e. ALWAYS when using X as backend. It is the default. What else are they going to use, the PostScript backend? " No, the image backend is probably what you would consider the default because it works everywhere and can be used for off-screen rendering. In my experience Cairo Xlib surfaces are actually pretty uncommon because client side operations are done so frequently.
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  > I really don't know what else to tell you. Like I said, GTK4 and Qt are already using it. Chrome/Electron is using it, and Firefox will have it very soon. Well, then don't repeat exactly the same argument. The point is that most desktop software _as of this day_ does not use client-side rendering, and even less desktop software uses OpenGL for rendering. Most of them are using plain classic widgets. We find some exceptions, but this is hardly enough to claim that most desktop software uses OpenGL, not in 2020, much less in 2000s. > I can think of several: KDE Connect, KSysGuard, System Settings, Kamoso, Kongress, While KDE Connect and Kongress do have some qml for the interface ( https://invent.kde.org/deepakarjariya/kdeconnect-kde/-/tree/master/app/qml https://invent.kde.org/deepakarjariya/kdeconnect-kde/-/tree/... ) , I have not been able to find any QML whatsoever for the rest (e.g. https://github.com/KDE/ksysguard https://github.com/KDE/ksysguard ). Kongress looks like a widget anyway. You can easily recognize these programs by how poorly they integrate with the rest of KDE, and I definitely do not see them with any frequency at all. > This happened in GNOME 40 so your distro may be behind. So, apparently, gnome-shell uses it through GJS, which is why I can't find any binary linking directly to gtk4. It's still literally one user. > No, the image backend is probably what you would consider the default because it works everywhere and can be used for off-screen rendering. The xlib backend is obviously also capable of off-screen rendering, otherwise all hell would break loose. And the xlib backend is still the default. Seriously: https://github.com/GNOME/gtk/blob/master/gdk/x11/gdksurface-x11.c https://github.com/GNOME/gtk/blob/master/gdk/x11/gdksurface-... . Why don't you just try? It's not hard to get into a situation where you don't have a working OpenGL environment and _all_ software still works. It's not hard to measure the bandwidth used for indirect X. Etc. Etc.