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I used to think that privacy was a technical problem, then I thought it was a legal problem, now I think it is a reaction problem. We are not disgusted enough.

I used to think that privacy was a technical problem, then I thought it was a legal problem, now I think it is a reaction problem. We are not disgusted enough. I do wonder if that will change.

_8j50 5y ago
No, it's a legal problem. There are countries where groping women is not a big deal for example. Even in the most "ideal" EU countries, casual racism is an afterthought. Reaction is a problem because there is no adverse consequence to the perpetrator. I don't need a browser extension, I need CEOs in prison. Then reactions will catch up.
- thrashh 5y ago
  I think it’s a cultural problem. Things are or are not a problem in certain places because that’s just how things have been done. You pick it up when you grow up in that culture. Which leads to the problem of determining what is actually right or wrong. For example, I naturally believe that racism is wrong because of the culture I grew up in (multicultural California) tells me that it’s wrong. But I also believe it is wrong because it undermines society and adds unnecessary friction to interactions, so it’s simply more productive if it didn’t exist. I believe that privacy is important because I believe humans work best when they feel free to think and act freely. I believe society (and myself as a result) benefits far more in that scenario.
  - _8j50 5y ago
    You bring up an interesting point. But even at the peak of slavery in the US, there were "white" people who believed all people are created equal and deserve equal rights, some even helped free slaves. I think it is more of a worldview thing which is influenced by local culture. You beliefs about answers to fundamental questions like why do people exist? What are valid authority systems and structures? What is the origin of humans? And more questions like this, makes the difference. I believe racism is wrong because I don't believe race is a thing beyond a social classification system. I believe in ethnicities and diffrences between them, but humans share a common origin. Even if some humans have less or more capability to do certain things than others, in order to be just, one must evaluate others as individuals not groups. Even if some statistic about a group can predict behavior of all but one members of a group, prejudice against that one member is still unjust and unfair, We should treat others the way we want to be treated ourselves. But back to the topic, I think I agree with you that why we believe privacy is important is critical to make any improvements or changes. Simply put, privacy is power. When someone deprives you of privacy against your consent (where expectation of it is readonable), they are excercising power over you. They are excecising a claim that for whatever reason, information about you now belongs to them. If all or most information about you belongs to someone, you are now their subject. It could be as simple as a lack of understanding of the implications of privacy deprivation.
- po1nt 5y ago
  How did you bring up groping and racism into CSS fingerprinting topic?
  - _8j50 5y ago
    Except I was replying to a comment about systemic acceptance of privacy deprivation. Groping and racism are considered unacceptable in most places, good case studies to correlatr and then find cause of systemic acceptances. Interesting how you are trying to change the conversation and make it about the analogy used to analyze the root cause of the issue described in the post.
- SahAssar 5y ago
  > Even in the most "ideal" EU countries, casual racism is an afterthought Could you clarify what you mean and what countries?
  - _8j50 5y ago
    I would rather not distract from the discussion at hand. If you don't already know the answer to that, I would rather not discuss the subject here.
    - SahAssar 5y ago
      If you don't want to say what you imply then perhaps don't imply it at all. You actually explaining what you're implying will not distract unless the original implication was also distracting. This just makes it look like you want to state opinions as facts without even stating the opinion fully.
      - _8j50 5y ago
        As far as I know and intended this is common knowledge. Plenty of ways to find out which countries treat foreigners and minorities badly. Either I list all EU countries or you are asking me to build a case against specific ones. Either way, I am not interested, if you wish to believe otherwise then consider my statement an opinion.
        SahAssar 5y ago
        If it is common knowledge then it should be easy for you to link me a source for what what you are referring to.
godelski 5y ago
I thought Smarter Every Day's analogy to carbon emissions was great for this exact reason. It's hard to feel like it is a problem because it is difficult to see the pollutant and small amounts don't cause major problems. But when that pollutant reaches a critical mass then it becomes a very large problem for everyone, not just a particular individual.
- toastal 5y ago
  Though I think it's fishy he's trying to get VC funding for a privacy product that does similar stuff to current FOSS projects. How on Earth do you expect to make profit for investors on a privacy product?
  - rndgermandude 5y ago
    By being "better" than the (FOSS) competition, even if only for some narrowly scoped use cases. Maybe there is a market for privacy products that allows you to make some money. They seem to be focused on privately storing and sharing documents and other files. What FOSS competition is there that just works? Signal and matrix have very limited UI/UX for that use case, and they also severely limit file sizes (100 MB I think, which is nothing if you share a 4K video of the family singing Happy Birthday for grandma). Signal also does not really work on desktop, and not at all without a phone. What else is there? dropbox and google drive and amazon fail on the privacy aspect, mega.nz is too shady both in history and in current business practices. Most other competitors do not really have sharing or fail the privacy bit, and the other open source "apps" usually require you setting up some infrastructure, which won't work for most people as they lack the skills to do so and/or motivation to go through the hassle of maintaining such a setup[1]. They also try to be kinda snapchat with self-destructing file shares. That this is impossible at the very least thanks to the analog hole is a given, but at least they mention that and mention how they intent to fight it (by using watermarks to discourage people from screenshots, etc). They seem to overstate their capabilities in their main marketing material, tho. They are a bit sparse on the details and very "marketingey" - which is understandable given the target audience of this campaign - but they promise a proper white paper and open source (not necessarily free) code soon. All I see is that they have a kickstarter for a measly $150K, not really VC funding? So "make a profit for investors" might be a kind non-goal at least for now. It doesn't sound like they aim to be the next unicorn, just to be sustainable and maybe eventually make the major investors their money back and then some. I wouldn't call this thing "fishy". It has a high likelihood of failure in the market and/or not quite delivering on the promises, sure, but that's true for all early startups. But they might come out with a real product valuable enough for some niche of people to pay for it and sustain it. The Smarter Every Day guy also put his reputation on the line. He doesn't seem stupid enough to back complete vaporware or worse, grab the money and run. His reputation is likely more valuable mid to long term than the $500K (of $150K they asked for). My personal guess: it will fail to be big (the space is too crowded in "good enough" apps, and they will have a hard time building enough network effect that their "sharing files" mission requires), it will fail to deliver everything they aspire to deliver, but they will deliver something that a niche of people will like and use. If that will be enough to sustain the thing... maybe not. They kinda have to go as a freemium app, like lastpass or mega.nz or protonmail to even have a chance to build up momentum, or find themselves some "sugardaddies" and "sugarmommies" as signal did or mozilla did (tho the latter is in trouble now thanks to the codependence - as well as bad management). They could even become a mega or even a dropbox competitor. Or they will fail to acquire enough users and fade away or have to pivot to a secure and private file management/backup solution, and still face a lot of competitors. [1] Obligatory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
snarf21 5y ago
Well, the real problem is advertising. It is far too profitable. If we want to live in a less distorted world, start taxing digital advertising heavily. Give people the real choice to pay for services (like we do in every other area in life) instead of paying with their privacy.
- skoskie 5y ago
  Relevant Twitter thread. https://twitter.com/PatrickMcGee_/status/1451619916994396164 https://twitter.com/PatrickMcGee_/status/1451619916994396164
- judge2020 5y ago
  Who's to say they're paying with privacy? Xbox and Playstation get 15-30% of every game sale for their consoles, since the consoles are sold near-cost or even at a loss. At least historically they were just paying on the backend, not with their privacy. Is the line tracking, advertising, or just not being able to pay everything up-front (and not based on usage)?

I used to think that privacy was a technical problem, then I thought it was a legal problem, now I think it is a reaction problem. We are not disgusted enough. I do wonder if that will change.

_8j50 5y ago

No, it's a legal problem. There are countries where groping women is not a big deal for example. Even in the most "ideal" EU countries, casual racism is an afterthought. Reaction is a problem because there is no adverse consequence to the perpetrator. I don't need a browser extension, I need CEOs in prison. Then reactions will catch up.

thrashh 5y ago
I think it’s a cultural problem. Things are or are not a problem in certain places because that’s just how things have been done. You pick it up when you grow up in that culture. Which leads to the problem of determining what is actually right or wrong. For example, I naturally believe that racism is wrong because of the culture I grew up in (multicultural California) tells me that it’s wrong. But I also believe it is wrong because it undermines society and adds unnecessary friction to interactions, so it’s simply more productive if it didn’t exist. I believe that privacy is important because I believe humans work best when they feel free to think and act freely. I believe society (and myself as a result) benefits far more in that scenario.
- _8j50 5y ago
  You bring up an interesting point. But even at the peak of slavery in the US, there were "white" people who believed all people are created equal and deserve equal rights, some even helped free slaves. I think it is more of a worldview thing which is influenced by local culture. You beliefs about answers to fundamental questions like why do people exist? What are valid authority systems and structures? What is the origin of humans? And more questions like this, makes the difference. I believe racism is wrong because I don't believe race is a thing beyond a social classification system. I believe in ethnicities and diffrences between them, but humans share a common origin. Even if some humans have less or more capability to do certain things than others, in order to be just, one must evaluate others as individuals not groups. Even if some statistic about a group can predict behavior of all but one members of a group, prejudice against that one member is still unjust and unfair, We should treat others the way we want to be treated ourselves. But back to the topic, I think I agree with you that why we believe privacy is important is critical to make any improvements or changes. Simply put, privacy is power. When someone deprives you of privacy against your consent (where expectation of it is readonable), they are excercising power over you. They are excecising a claim that for whatever reason, information about you now belongs to them. If all or most information about you belongs to someone, you are now their subject. It could be as simple as a lack of understanding of the implications of privacy deprivation.
po1nt 5y ago
How did you bring up groping and racism into CSS fingerprinting topic?
- _8j50 5y ago
  Except I was replying to a comment about systemic acceptance of privacy deprivation. Groping and racism are considered unacceptable in most places, good case studies to correlatr and then find cause of systemic acceptances. Interesting how you are trying to change the conversation and make it about the analogy used to analyze the root cause of the issue described in the post.
SahAssar 5y ago
> Even in the most "ideal" EU countries, casual racism is an afterthought Could you clarify what you mean and what countries?
- _8j50 5y ago
  I would rather not distract from the discussion at hand. If you don't already know the answer to that, I would rather not discuss the subject here.
  - SahAssar 5y ago
    If you don't want to say what you imply then perhaps don't imply it at all. You actually explaining what you're implying will not distract unless the original implication was also distracting. This just makes it look like you want to state opinions as facts without even stating the opinion fully.
    - _8j50 5y ago
      As far as I know and intended this is common knowledge. Plenty of ways to find out which countries treat foreigners and minorities badly. Either I list all EU countries or you are asking me to build a case against specific ones. Either way, I am not interested, if you wish to believe otherwise then consider my statement an opinion.
      - SahAssar 5y ago
        If it is common knowledge then it should be easy for you to link me a source for what what you are referring to.

godelski 5y ago

I thought Smarter Every Day's analogy to carbon emissions was great for this exact reason. It's hard to feel like it is a problem because it is difficult to see the pollutant and small amounts don't cause major problems. But when that pollutant reaches a critical mass then it becomes a very large problem for everyone, not just a particular individual.

toastal 5y ago
Though I think it's fishy he's trying to get VC funding for a privacy product that does similar stuff to current FOSS projects. How on Earth do you expect to make profit for investors on a privacy product?
- rndgermandude 5y ago
  By being "better" than the (FOSS) competition, even if only for some narrowly scoped use cases. Maybe there is a market for privacy products that allows you to make some money. They seem to be focused on privately storing and sharing documents and other files. What FOSS competition is there that just works? Signal and matrix have very limited UI/UX for that use case, and they also severely limit file sizes (100 MB I think, which is nothing if you share a 4K video of the family singing Happy Birthday for grandma). Signal also does not really work on desktop, and not at all without a phone. What else is there? dropbox and google drive and amazon fail on the privacy aspect, mega.nz is too shady both in history and in current business practices. Most other competitors do not really have sharing or fail the privacy bit, and the other open source "apps" usually require you setting up some infrastructure, which won't work for most people as they lack the skills to do so and/or motivation to go through the hassle of maintaining such a setup[1]. They also try to be kinda snapchat with self-destructing file shares. That this is impossible at the very least thanks to the analog hole is a given, but at least they mention that and mention how they intent to fight it (by using watermarks to discourage people from screenshots, etc). They seem to overstate their capabilities in their main marketing material, tho. They are a bit sparse on the details and very "marketingey" - which is understandable given the target audience of this campaign - but they promise a proper white paper and open source (not necessarily free) code soon. All I see is that they have a kickstarter for a measly $150K, not really VC funding? So "make a profit for investors" might be a kind non-goal at least for now. It doesn't sound like they aim to be the next unicorn, just to be sustainable and maybe eventually make the major investors their money back and then some. I wouldn't call this thing "fishy". It has a high likelihood of failure in the market and/or not quite delivering on the promises, sure, but that's true for all early startups. But they might come out with a real product valuable enough for some niche of people to pay for it and sustain it. The Smarter Every Day guy also put his reputation on the line. He doesn't seem stupid enough to back complete vaporware or worse, grab the money and run. His reputation is likely more valuable mid to long term than the $500K (of $150K they asked for). My personal guess: it will fail to be big (the space is too crowded in "good enough" apps, and they will have a hard time building enough network effect that their "sharing files" mission requires), it will fail to deliver everything they aspire to deliver, but they will deliver something that a niche of people will like and use. If that will be enough to sustain the thing... maybe not. They kinda have to go as a freemium app, like lastpass or mega.nz or protonmail to even have a chance to build up momentum, or find themselves some "sugardaddies" and "sugarmommies" as signal did or mozilla did (tho the latter is in trouble now thanks to the codependence - as well as bad management). They could even become a mega or even a dropbox competitor. Or they will fail to acquire enough users and fade away or have to pivot to a secure and private file management/backup solution, and still face a lot of competitors. [1] Obligatory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863

snarf21 5y ago

Well, the real problem is advertising. It is far too profitable. If we want to live in a less distorted world, start taxing digital advertising heavily. Give people the real choice to pay for services (like we do in every other area in life) instead of paying with their privacy.

skoskie 5y ago
Relevant Twitter thread. https://twitter.com/PatrickMcGee_/status/1451619916994396164 https://twitter.com/PatrickMcGee_/status/1451619916994396164
judge2020 5y ago
Who's to say they're paying with privacy? Xbox and Playstation get 15-30% of every game sale for their consoles, since the consoles are sold near-cost or even at a loss. At least historically they were just paying on the backend, not with their privacy. Is the line tracking, advertising, or just not being able to pay everything up-front (and not based on usage)?