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Somehow Toyota has managed to blow the 20 year lead they had on electric vehicles with the Prius by not innovating in this space at all since the original Prius

Somehow Toyota has managed to blow the 20 year lead they had on electric vehicles with the Prius by not innovating in this space at all since the original Prius. They instead focused on hydrogen with the Mirai, which turned out to be the wrong bet. It's surprising to see that even GM, BMW and Mercedes have "regular" electric cars in the market while Toyota has nothing more than a Tron-car sub-brand concept.

rodgerd 5y ago
Their first electric car was a RAV4. It, along with any broader potential, was completely trashed by an American oil company and patent fuckery, costing them an absolute fortune.
- umeshunni 5y ago
  Amazing! I didn't know this history at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_...
- chrisjc 5y ago
  And its (or was it a different generation?) battery pack was developed by Tesla. > Toyota worked together with Tesla Motors to develop the second generation RAV4 EV, and the electric SUV was released in the United States in September 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
  - umeshunni 5y ago
    OP is referring to the first gen RAV4 that was released in the 90s.
xbar 5y ago
..and being bitter and cynical about EV success. Seems like they might have been in petroleum's back pocket this whole time.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  I know your comment is tongue-in-cheek but ha! I don't know about that. The Prius, even if it's just a hybrid, probably led to more aggregate fuel/carbon emission savings than every (non-tesla/chinese manufacturers) EV model combined. "Old school" manufacturers like BMW and VW may look like they are doing better because of the dozens of models they've released but the actual sales numbers are so tiny that their impact is basically 0. The Prius on the other hand was a massive sales success, and it really was what made hybrids a thing.
  - mxschumacher 5y ago
    The US is the smallest and slowest growing of the big three EV markets. China and Europe being the other two. Please find year to date (2021) EV sales by car group here: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 Volkswagen is outselling Tesla.
    - 11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
      Looking at the chart, VW sold 173.5k in the Groups column. Adding the Volkswagen entries in the Model column gets to about 102k. Is the left column all cars? Or includes hybrids? Adding the Models, VW is slightly ahead at about 102k vs about 95k for Tesla.
      - daoistmonk 5y ago
        VW Group includes lots of sub-brands: i.e. AUDI, PORSCHE, SKODA.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group#Subsidiaries_and_brands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group#Subsidiaries_...
- cure 5y ago
  Applying Hanlon's razor... I think it's just a case executive incompetence/severe tunnel vision: Toyota has been in hydrogen lala-land for a good long while now. Now they have some serious catching up to do.
chillingeffect 5y ago
...on the other hand, they hung back with their successful compromise and let others do all kinds of innovation for them, such as battery-sizing, motor/tire layout, UI, steering-wheel shape, and innumerable smaller details.
skhameneh 5y ago
I have a Prius Prime. It's a really solid economy vehicle with a lot of tech. It's plenty fast and a lot more affordable than a Tesla. The Prius Prime also had a heat pump system years before any Tesla models had them. If I could comfortably afford more car, I would want a Model Y over a RAV4 Prime. But, I would probably get a RAV4 Prime because it's a lot cheaper.
sleepysysadmin 5y ago
>Somehow Toyota has managed to blow the 20 year lead they had on electric vehicles with the Prius by not innovating in this space at all since the original Prius. They instead focused on hydrogen with the Mirai, which turned out to be the wrong bet. Japanese government as part of climate change efforts bet on hydrogen. The theory being that it's clean burning and such. However, the realization that hydrogen was already a mature industry and it's entirely derived from fossil fuels... that was a very dumb move on their part. >It's surprising to see that even GM, BMW and Mercedes have "regular" electric cars in the market while Toyota has nothing more than a Tron-car sub-brand concept. Everyone except Japan. Hyundai ioniq 5 is a crossover that can drag race against mclarens. Teslas are beasts. New Hummer is epic. The new Mustang mache is better than the regular mustang. VW id4 is perfect for what it is supposed to be. GTX performance is coming? Worse yet, this toyota is kind of trash. Who made the decision that the base model has 150kw motor in 1 and then 2x 80kw in AWD. As opposed to the correct decision of 2x 150kw. The base model of 150kw, ok i get it. The top end being 160kw? Nope. wrong decision.

rodgerd 5y ago

Their first electric car was a RAV4. It, along with any broader potential, was completely trashed by an American oil company and patent fuckery, costing them an absolute fortune.

umeshunni 5y ago
Amazing! I didn't know this history at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_...
chrisjc 5y ago
And its (or was it a different generation?) battery pack was developed by Tesla. > Toyota worked together with Tesla Motors to develop the second generation RAV4 EV, and the electric SUV was released in the United States in September 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
- umeshunni 5y ago
  OP is referring to the first gen RAV4 that was released in the 90s.

xbar 5y ago

..and being bitter and cynical about EV success. Seems like they might have been in petroleum's back pocket this whole time.

mardifoufs 5y ago
I know your comment is tongue-in-cheek but ha! I don't know about that. The Prius, even if it's just a hybrid, probably led to more aggregate fuel/carbon emission savings than every (non-tesla/chinese manufacturers) EV model combined. "Old school" manufacturers like BMW and VW may look like they are doing better because of the dozens of models they've released but the actual sales numbers are so tiny that their impact is basically 0. The Prius on the other hand was a massive sales success, and it really was what made hybrids a thing.
- mxschumacher 5y ago
  The US is the smallest and slowest growing of the big three EV markets. China and Europe being the other two. Please find year to date (2021) EV sales by car group here: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 Volkswagen is outselling Tesla.
  - 11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
    Looking at the chart, VW sold 173.5k in the Groups column. Adding the Volkswagen entries in the Model column gets to about 102k. Is the left column all cars? Or includes hybrids? Adding the Models, VW is slightly ahead at about 102k vs about 95k for Tesla.
    - daoistmonk 5y ago
      VW Group includes lots of sub-brands: i.e. AUDI, PORSCHE, SKODA.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group#Subsidiaries_and_brands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group#Subsidiaries_...
cure 5y ago
Applying Hanlon's razor... I think it's just a case executive incompetence/severe tunnel vision: Toyota has been in hydrogen lala-land for a good long while now. Now they have some serious catching up to do.

chillingeffect 5y ago

...on the other hand, they hung back with their successful compromise and let others do all kinds of innovation for them, such as battery-sizing, motor/tire layout, UI, steering-wheel shape, and innumerable smaller details.

skhameneh 5y ago

I have a Prius Prime. It's a really solid economy vehicle with a lot of tech. It's plenty fast and a lot more affordable than a Tesla. The Prius Prime also had a heat pump system years before any Tesla models had them. If I could comfortably afford more car, I would want a Model Y over a RAV4 Prime. But, I would probably get a RAV4 Prime because it's a lot cheaper.

sleepysysadmin 5y ago

>Somehow Toyota has managed to blow the 20 year lead they had on electric vehicles with the Prius by not innovating in this space at all since the original Prius. They instead focused on hydrogen with the Mirai, which turned out to be the wrong bet. Japanese government as part of climate change efforts bet on hydrogen. The theory being that it's clean burning and such. However, the realization that hydrogen was already a mature industry and it's entirely derived from fossil fuels... that was a very dumb move on their part. >It's surprising to see that even GM, BMW and Mercedes have "regular" electric cars in the market while Toyota has nothing more than a Tron-car sub-brand concept. Everyone except Japan. Hyundai ioniq 5 is a crossover that can drag race against mclarens. Teslas are beasts. New Hummer is epic. The new Mustang mache is better than the regular mustang. VW id4 is perfect for what it is supposed to be. GTX performance is coming? Worse yet, this toyota is kind of trash. Who made the decision that the base model has 150kw motor in 1 and then 2x 80kw in AWD. As opposed to the correct decision of 2x 150kw. The base model of 150kw, ok i get it. The top end being 160kw? Nope. wrong decision.