7 ms·

Personally, I'm less bullish on FB/Meta now. Half of me believes if someone can turn it around it would be Zuck, and the other half believes that FB's culture h

Personally, I'm less bullish on FB/Meta now. Half of me believes if someone can turn it around it would be Zuck, and the other half believes that FB's culture has optimized the wrong the thing for the past 5 years. Consider this, and call me out if I'm wrong, for the past 5 years we were led to believe by FB/YouTube that algorithmically generated could only have negative consequences as it moved people to more and more reactionary content as it was the only way to optimize time on site. The only way FB could grow was by pushing content that got people riled up. Then TikTok came along and it's kind of disproven that? I started using TikTok as a joke and it's by far my most use social app now, and none of the algorithmically generated content is as polarizing as what I would find on the other apps; and clearly they are growing fast. There was another way but the local-maxima prevented FB from seeing it and as a result they have lost major brand cachet. I don't know what is different about TikTok but the way I see it is Meta's problem will be avoiding their user base dying off and the USG will likely prevent any future acquisitions. Their standalone apps (M, Rooms, Riff, Gaming, Dating, Collab) haven't been major successes (although given the size of Facebook some of these have 10s of millions of users); and I'm not confident a VR platform will have major penetration outside of "Ready Player One" fanboys. That said, FB is a trillion dollar company and betting against a company with such a huge war chest is like trying to catch a falling knife.

aaroninsf 5y ago
Knives may be snapped mid air by the appropriate adversary. The tide is correctly turning against the manifest abuses of this organization, regardless of what it asks to be called; with any luck it will be systematically dismantled and defanged. The pathology and amorality inherent in its DNA goes back to Zuckerberg; the fish has rotted from the head from the start. That pathology leads to market valuation is not a surprise but it's also not conducive to survival.
unstatusthequo 5y ago
My opinion is a name change is just that. You can also put a Ferrari body kit for a Pinto, but it’s still a pinto. Name change is just them trying to dodge their own brand’s untrustworthiness.
tyrfing 5y ago
3-5 years ago, the prevailing narrative about Facebook and other social media was that of the 'filter bubble', where you would only see things you agreed with. More recently, it's been a 180 to decrying Facebook force-feeding users content they disagree with. TikTok is basically the old model, the one that was blamed for things like Trump being elected.
darknavi 5y ago
> The only way FB could grow was by pushing content that got people riled up. Not sure if I've ever believe it was the only way for them to grow. I hate Facebook (product) for what it has become but it is an excellent tool for its original use, which is keeping in touch with friends/family/communities.
- nseggs 5y ago
  Right. Easiest maybe, certainly not only.
- soperj 5y ago
  So is email.
  - snugghash 5y ago
    What? The core aspect of FB/Twitter/etc. is twofold 1. No guaranteed-attention obligation from your circle, so you're free to share more things 2. Algorithms for YOUR attention so you see what you want to see in the order of importance. If you have very little time, you only see the most important things. Email, Slack etc. are not even in the same category, it's like comparing a postcard to a newspaper headline
  - xwdv 5y ago
    Grossly underestimates how complicated email can really be.
zamalek 5y ago
> betting against a company with such a huge war chest is like trying to catch a falling knife. Indeed. My biggest fear is that succeed. I happen to prefer PCs (and there is no reason to argue for or against that). Apple has been incredibly successful at capturing market share and their devices are now mandatory at my new job. I might not like it, but it's not the end of the world: Apple behaves ethically. Now imagine your [otherwise] dream job demands that you strap a Quest on and feed Zuck's data fetish.
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  Here's hoping Microsoft's HoloLense takes off in the corporate world.
  - quantum_magpie 5y ago
    Ugh. Here's hoping that all crapware VR crashes, burns, and takes down their host companies.
- gear54rus 5y ago
  Apple behaves ethically with those file scanners on your devices? Iphone parts that show errors when replaced with the same parts from another phone? Lobbying against the right to repair? Blocking access to 3rd party app stores? lol. It's just marketing, nothing more.
  - jmknoll 5y ago
    Apple has certainly displayed some anti-consumer behavior. No one will argue with that. But not all sins are equal. Let's not say that blocking access to repair stores is the same thing as knowingly aiding and abetting genocide.
    - random314 5y ago
      Sharing imessages with CCP that is ethnically cleansing uyghurs should certainly count as aiding and abetting genocide.
georgeglue1 5y ago
I don't think I've gotten an actual misinformation / hate speech / etc. recommendation from Youtube, Facebook, or Tiktok. On Facebook, I see potentially divisive posts from friends with very different political views. The difference with TikTok is that those friends don't post content. I think if you explicitly seek out problematic content you can end in a rabbit hole on any large algorithmic app.
- threeseed 5y ago
  I get far-right, anti-vaxxer, conspiracy, misinformation recommendations from Youtube at least a few times a week. And it's been like this for years despite me asking them not to show this type of content again. Anyone who thinks these issues are somehow unique or exclusive to Facebook is simply being dishonest. They are a byproduct of the anonymous, unfettered free speech we get from the internet not something intrinsic to recommendation algorithms.
  - ricardobeat 5y ago
    We had free speech before social networks and this wasn’t an issue. The problem is when you encourage all the 5000 lunatics who think the earth is pizza-shaped to congregate and consume each other’s content.
    - threeseed 5y ago
      Reddit and Twitter proves that it's not the case. They have allowed anti-vaxxer, conspiracy, misinformation etc communities to thrive and flourish and it's happened without recommendation algorithms. It happened because when people can see other's peoples comments they are able to follow them to discover more people like that.
      - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
        Twitter absolutely uses an algorithmic feed to show you content you'll engage with more. On Reddit this is somewhat true, but it's a well-known part of Reddit culture (though this has been changing as they've been kicking out more subs) that each sub has its own set of cultural mores, opinionated mods, and memes. There's lots of drama/hate on subs from other subs but you'll see the same phenomenon on the Fediverse or, for that matter, in a neighborhood gossip group. It's not like these views go away without algorithmic newsfeeds, it just that algorithmic feeds accelerate their spread.
twright0 5y ago
> Then TikTok came along and it's kind of disproven that? ... none of the algorithmically generated content is as polarizing as what I would find on the other apps. I don't think this is fully accurate. The big differentiator for Tik Tok's algorithmic feed from FB's or Youtube's (in my mind) is not its accuracy or lack of polarization, it's actually that it draws much firmer and harder to cross lines between the parts of its userbase with an (IMO intentionally) nerfed search capability, so it's very difficult to break out of the demographic/interest bubble it decides you are in for feed purposes. So you, personally, probably receive literally no polarizing, political, etc content that you aren't happy to see. But that doesn't mean it's not there! Here's an example: a researcher set up a new account, interacted with transphobic content, and was very quickly (in a few hours of viewing) seeing far-right conspiracy theory, antisemitic, white supremacy (and so on) content, some of which was endorsing violence. https://twitter.com/abbieasr/status/1445888305997000705 https://twitter.com/abbieasr/status/1445888305997000705
- riantogo 5y ago
  In my personal experience with tiktok it will pigeonhole you rapidly. But overall the platform is heavy on silly and fun content (not sure if it intentionally maintained like that by the owners). So before you know it you are pigeonholed into extremely fun stuff (compared to tediously polarizing content on other big apps). Now over time it might devolve into bad content if there is no higher level moderation to keep it on lighter side of things. I would personally be okay with not all platforms being totally democratic.
- data_ders 5y ago
  isn't ByteDance's play with TikTok to be as inoffensive as possible too? over-greedy filtering out of voices deemed to be "controversial"
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  ByteDance (字节跳动) the parent company that owns TikTok and mainland china Douyin 抖音 have been caught suppressing and hiding videos from disabled or LGBTQ users so that they are not shown to regular users. [0] [1] One might wonder what other content is suppressed on the platform. [2] [0] https://www.dailydot.com/irl/tiktok-fat-lgbtq-disabled-creators/ https://www.dailydot.com/irl/tiktok-fat-lgbtq-disabled-creat... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50645345 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50645345 [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-...
whoisjuan 5y ago
> Then TikTok came along and it's kind of disproven that? TikTok is the epitome of content augmentation through engagement. They literally will push more and more of what you're engaging with. Their algorithm is highly optimized to put you into very deep rabbit holes of content. During the BLM protests you could see two very different feeds depending what content were you liking and engaging with. After a few minutes of browsing it would literally feed you only pro-BLM or anti-BLM. No middle grounds.
kerng 5y ago
I think Snap or TikTok should rebrand to Antimeta, or at least build a subsidiary with that name to show how ridiculous this is. Facebook, or however the want to call themselves, is still the same company with its unethical leadership. Unless leadership changes, nothing good will be in store for society at large.
xwdv 5y ago
FB has so much money they could try literally hundreds of thousands of ideas, have all of them fail, and still have money for hundreds of thousands more. Eventually they will find the next big thing and execute perfectly. It is inevitable.
orky56 5y ago
I think part of it is demographics. Facebook's userbase is and continues to trend older especially for Facebook/WhatsApp and slightly for Instagram as well compared to TikTok/Snap. I'm not saying Facebook has abandoned the younger demo but wants to continue to cater to the earning and older demo. We're not going to live in Wall-E's world but when the older generation no longer wants to or can engage in IRL experiences that require being full mobile and healthy, AR and moreso VR will allow them to immerse themselves and "preserve" youth well longer than we thought possible. We are at an interesting time in history where wealth inequality is growing and the wealth transfer from rich to poor and more significantly from old to young may not happen as quickly as society needs it to. If the older demographic can and wants to hold on a decade or 2 longer compounded with healthcare advances giving them longer life expectancy and their existing investments/savings growing well, who knows what and when the future will look like?
bink 5y ago
> betting against a company with such a huge war chest is like trying to catch a falling knife. Maybe. But if money could buy product adoption we'd all be using Microsoft phones right now.
taylorportman 5y ago
Before their user base "dies off" they will enjoy a period of convalescence a be of a generation to appreciate VR/AR once they can't move good.

aaroninsf 5y ago

Knives may be snapped mid air by the appropriate adversary. The tide is correctly turning against the manifest abuses of this organization, regardless of what it asks to be called; with any luck it will be systematically dismantled and defanged. The pathology and amorality inherent in its DNA goes back to Zuckerberg; the fish has rotted from the head from the start. That pathology leads to market valuation is not a surprise but it's also not conducive to survival.

unstatusthequo 5y ago

My opinion is a name change is just that. You can also put a Ferrari body kit for a Pinto, but it’s still a pinto. Name change is just them trying to dodge their own brand’s untrustworthiness.

tyrfing 5y ago

3-5 years ago, the prevailing narrative about Facebook and other social media was that of the 'filter bubble', where you would only see things you agreed with. More recently, it's been a 180 to decrying Facebook force-feeding users content they disagree with. TikTok is basically the old model, the one that was blamed for things like Trump being elected.

darknavi 5y ago

> The only way FB could grow was by pushing content that got people riled up. Not sure if I've ever believe it was the only way for them to grow. I hate Facebook (product) for what it has become but it is an excellent tool for its original use, which is keeping in touch with friends/family/communities.

nseggs 5y ago
Right. Easiest maybe, certainly not only.
soperj 5y ago
So is email.
- snugghash 5y ago
  What? The core aspect of FB/Twitter/etc. is twofold 1. No guaranteed-attention obligation from your circle, so you're free to share more things 2. Algorithms for YOUR attention so you see what you want to see in the order of importance. If you have very little time, you only see the most important things. Email, Slack etc. are not even in the same category, it's like comparing a postcard to a newspaper headline
- xwdv 5y ago
  Grossly underestimates how complicated email can really be.

zamalek 5y ago

> betting against a company with such a huge war chest is like trying to catch a falling knife. Indeed. My biggest fear is that succeed. I happen to prefer PCs (and there is no reason to argue for or against that). Apple has been incredibly successful at capturing market share and their devices are now mandatory at my new job. I might not like it, but it's not the end of the world: Apple behaves ethically. Now imagine your [otherwise] dream job demands that you strap a Quest on and feed Zuck's data fetish.

monkeybutton 5y ago
Here's hoping Microsoft's HoloLense takes off in the corporate world.
- quantum_magpie 5y ago
  Ugh. Here's hoping that all crapware VR crashes, burns, and takes down their host companies.
gear54rus 5y ago
Apple behaves ethically with those file scanners on your devices? Iphone parts that show errors when replaced with the same parts from another phone? Lobbying against the right to repair? Blocking access to 3rd party app stores? lol. It's just marketing, nothing more.
- jmknoll 5y ago
  Apple has certainly displayed some anti-consumer behavior. No one will argue with that. But not all sins are equal. Let's not say that blocking access to repair stores is the same thing as knowingly aiding and abetting genocide.
  - random314 5y ago
    Sharing imessages with CCP that is ethnically cleansing uyghurs should certainly count as aiding and abetting genocide.

georgeglue1 5y ago

I don't think I've gotten an actual misinformation / hate speech / etc. recommendation from Youtube, Facebook, or Tiktok. On Facebook, I see potentially divisive posts from friends with very different political views. The difference with TikTok is that those friends don't post content. I think if you explicitly seek out problematic content you can end in a rabbit hole on any large algorithmic app.

threeseed 5y ago
I get far-right, anti-vaxxer, conspiracy, misinformation recommendations from Youtube at least a few times a week. And it's been like this for years despite me asking them not to show this type of content again. Anyone who thinks these issues are somehow unique or exclusive to Facebook is simply being dishonest. They are a byproduct of the anonymous, unfettered free speech we get from the internet not something intrinsic to recommendation algorithms.
- ricardobeat 5y ago
  We had free speech before social networks and this wasn’t an issue. The problem is when you encourage all the 5000 lunatics who think the earth is pizza-shaped to congregate and consume each other’s content.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Reddit and Twitter proves that it's not the case. They have allowed anti-vaxxer, conspiracy, misinformation etc communities to thrive and flourish and it's happened without recommendation algorithms. It happened because when people can see other's peoples comments they are able to follow them to discover more people like that.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      Twitter absolutely uses an algorithmic feed to show you content you'll engage with more. On Reddit this is somewhat true, but it's a well-known part of Reddit culture (though this has been changing as they've been kicking out more subs) that each sub has its own set of cultural mores, opinionated mods, and memes. There's lots of drama/hate on subs from other subs but you'll see the same phenomenon on the Fediverse or, for that matter, in a neighborhood gossip group. It's not like these views go away without algorithmic newsfeeds, it just that algorithmic feeds accelerate their spread.

twright0 5y ago

> Then TikTok came along and it's kind of disproven that? ... none of the algorithmically generated content is as polarizing as what I would find on the other apps. I don't think this is fully accurate. The big differentiator for Tik Tok's algorithmic feed from FB's or Youtube's (in my mind) is not its accuracy or lack of polarization, it's actually that it draws much firmer and harder to cross lines between the parts of its userbase with an (IMO intentionally) nerfed search capability, so it's very difficult to break out of the demographic/interest bubble it decides you are in for feed purposes. So you, personally, probably receive literally no polarizing, political, etc content that you aren't happy to see. But that doesn't mean it's not there! Here's an example: a researcher set up a new account, interacted with transphobic content, and was very quickly (in a few hours of viewing) seeing far-right conspiracy theory, antisemitic, white supremacy (and so on) content, some of which was endorsing violence. https://twitter.com/abbieasr/status/1445888305997000705 https://twitter.com/abbieasr/status/1445888305997000705

riantogo 5y ago
In my personal experience with tiktok it will pigeonhole you rapidly. But overall the platform is heavy on silly and fun content (not sure if it intentionally maintained like that by the owners). So before you know it you are pigeonholed into extremely fun stuff (compared to tediously polarizing content on other big apps). Now over time it might devolve into bad content if there is no higher level moderation to keep it on lighter side of things. I would personally be okay with not all platforms being totally democratic.
data_ders 5y ago
isn't ByteDance's play with TikTok to be as inoffensive as possible too? over-greedy filtering out of voices deemed to be "controversial"
908B64B197 5y ago
ByteDance (字节跳动) the parent company that owns TikTok and mainland china Douyin 抖音 have been caught suppressing and hiding videos from disabled or LGBTQ users so that they are not shown to regular users. [0] [1] One might wonder what other content is suppressed on the platform. [2] [0] https://www.dailydot.com/irl/tiktok-fat-lgbtq-disabled-creators/ https://www.dailydot.com/irl/tiktok-fat-lgbtq-disabled-creat... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50645345 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50645345 [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-...

whoisjuan 5y ago

> Then TikTok came along and it's kind of disproven that? TikTok is the epitome of content augmentation through engagement. They literally will push more and more of what you're engaging with. Their algorithm is highly optimized to put you into very deep rabbit holes of content. During the BLM protests you could see two very different feeds depending what content were you liking and engaging with. After a few minutes of browsing it would literally feed you only pro-BLM or anti-BLM. No middle grounds.

kerng 5y ago

I think Snap or TikTok should rebrand to Antimeta, or at least build a subsidiary with that name to show how ridiculous this is. Facebook, or however the want to call themselves, is still the same company with its unethical leadership. Unless leadership changes, nothing good will be in store for society at large.

xwdv 5y ago

FB has so much money they could try literally hundreds of thousands of ideas, have all of them fail, and still have money for hundreds of thousands more. Eventually they will find the next big thing and execute perfectly. It is inevitable.

orky56 5y ago

I think part of it is demographics. Facebook's userbase is and continues to trend older especially for Facebook/WhatsApp and slightly for Instagram as well compared to TikTok/Snap. I'm not saying Facebook has abandoned the younger demo but wants to continue to cater to the earning and older demo. We're not going to live in Wall-E's world but when the older generation no longer wants to or can engage in IRL experiences that require being full mobile and healthy, AR and moreso VR will allow them to immerse themselves and "preserve" youth well longer than we thought possible. We are at an interesting time in history where wealth inequality is growing and the wealth transfer from rich to poor and more significantly from old to young may not happen as quickly as society needs it to. If the older demographic can and wants to hold on a decade or 2 longer compounded with healthcare advances giving them longer life expectancy and their existing investments/savings growing well, who knows what and when the future will look like?

bink 5y ago

> betting against a company with such a huge war chest is like trying to catch a falling knife. Maybe. But if money could buy product adoption we'd all be using Microsoft phones right now.

taylorportman 5y ago

Before their user base "dies off" they will enjoy a period of convalescence a be of a generation to appreciate VR/AR once they can't move good.