6 ms·

No Ethics personnel on the team?

WJW 5y ago
> Our Mission > We want to help parents have kids when it otherwise wouldn’t be possible. What is so unethical about that?
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Sure, that end is noble, but the ends don't always justify the means.
  - jschwartzi 5y ago
    I don’t understand. Are you saying there’s some negative impact to allowing people to have children who otherwise couldn’t? What problems do you foresee?
    - willmorrison 5y ago
      I commented above a few of the issues I see. For example, would Lebron James (or any celebrity or person that has genetics that are profitable) be afraid of giving blood for fear of someone making Lebron 2.0 without his permission?
      - HPsquared 5y ago
        Or, literally some kind of false paternity fraud - such a child would come with certain legal rights and privileges.
      - klipt 5y ago
        That's not a new problem, in the USA even a man who is raped can be forced to pay child support to his rapist. Obviously these child support laws are in need of reform.
    - mcculley 5y ago
      Once humans (and other animals) can be created without parents being involved, there will be many ethical issues. At what point do they attain human rights? At conception? At "birth" from an artificial womb? What defines "human" in "human rights"? (Can they knock out a few genes and make a sentient creature that is capable of suffering but not human? We have sentient non-humans suffering in factory farms already.) How will we prevent people/corporations/governments/religions from just deciding to create a bunch of people? What does regulation look like in this inevitable future?
      - throwaway482423 5y ago
        >At what point do they attain human rights? At conception? At "birth" from an artificial womb? This is hardly a new issue
        mcculley 5y ago
        The issue is currently limited to pregnant women.
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      > Are you saying there’s some negative impact to allowing people to have children who otherwise couldn’t? In and of itself, no. I'm saying there's issues with some particular ways of doing so.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      Personally, I foresee breeding programs for armies to create perfect soldiers. I foresee breeding programs for a permanent slave underclass. How can you not see the problems?
    - mensetmanusman 5y ago
      Governments buying soldiers from birth.
  - WJW 5y ago
    Obviously, but this is not so different from "regular" IVF for example. I'd have liked a little bit more explanation from GP about why these particular means go too far for them whereas current fertility treatments don't, instead of just throwing a blanket suggestion of unethicalness out there.
- hourislate 5y ago
  Because the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I can see many ways this spirals into something different.
  - BurningFrog 5y ago
    Having Ethicists making these decisions is paving another road with good intentions.
kevinpet 5y ago
Let me help you out with my automated bioethics bot. val bioethics = function(proposal) { return "That's unethical"; }
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  My current level of cynicisms says that if you make someone a gatekeeper, they will use that power. At minimum, to justify their salary.
willmorrison 5y ago
“We do not take the development of this technology lightly. Our hope is that it will one day be used to bring healthy kids into the world, so we must hold ourselves to very high safety and ethical standards. Our plan will be to work closely with scientific, regulatory and ethical experts to ensure this technology develops safely and responsibly.” From their homepage
skulk 5y ago
How much does ethics even matter in this specific case? If they develop this technology and use it in a "maximally ethical" way, whatever that is, what is stopping the next person to get their hands on it from using it unethically? It seems to me that the ethics question was "Should we have this technology at all?" and not "What do we do with it?" and it's already been answered.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  I agree with you completely - I was just trying to make the point that they claim to care about ethics and yet have no ethicists from what it appears.

WJW 5y ago

> Our Mission > We want to help parents have kids when it otherwise wouldn’t be possible. What is so unethical about that?

josephcsible 5y ago
Sure, that end is noble, but the ends don't always justify the means.
- jschwartzi 5y ago
  I don’t understand. Are you saying there’s some negative impact to allowing people to have children who otherwise couldn’t? What problems do you foresee?
  - willmorrison 5y ago
    I commented above a few of the issues I see. For example, would Lebron James (or any celebrity or person that has genetics that are profitable) be afraid of giving blood for fear of someone making Lebron 2.0 without his permission?
    - HPsquared 5y ago
      Or, literally some kind of false paternity fraud - such a child would come with certain legal rights and privileges.
    - klipt 5y ago
      That's not a new problem, in the USA even a man who is raped can be forced to pay child support to his rapist. Obviously these child support laws are in need of reform.
  - mcculley 5y ago
    Once humans (and other animals) can be created without parents being involved, there will be many ethical issues. At what point do they attain human rights? At conception? At "birth" from an artificial womb? What defines "human" in "human rights"? (Can they knock out a few genes and make a sentient creature that is capable of suffering but not human? We have sentient non-humans suffering in factory farms already.) How will we prevent people/corporations/governments/religions from just deciding to create a bunch of people? What does regulation look like in this inevitable future?
    - throwaway482423 5y ago
      >At what point do they attain human rights? At conception? At "birth" from an artificial womb? This is hardly a new issue
      - mcculley 5y ago
        The issue is currently limited to pregnant women.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    > Are you saying there’s some negative impact to allowing people to have children who otherwise couldn’t? In and of itself, no. I'm saying there's issues with some particular ways of doing so.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Personally, I foresee breeding programs for armies to create perfect soldiers. I foresee breeding programs for a permanent slave underclass. How can you not see the problems?
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Governments buying soldiers from birth.
- WJW 5y ago
  Obviously, but this is not so different from "regular" IVF for example. I'd have liked a little bit more explanation from GP about why these particular means go too far for them whereas current fertility treatments don't, instead of just throwing a blanket suggestion of unethicalness out there.
hourislate 5y ago
Because the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I can see many ways this spirals into something different.
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  Having Ethicists making these decisions is paving another road with good intentions.

kevinpet 5y ago

Let me help you out with my automated bioethics bot. val bioethics = function(proposal) { return "That's unethical"; }

BurningFrog 5y ago
My current level of cynicisms says that if you make someone a gatekeeper, they will use that power. At minimum, to justify their salary.

willmorrison 5y ago

“We do not take the development of this technology lightly. Our hope is that it will one day be used to bring healthy kids into the world, so we must hold ourselves to very high safety and ethical standards. Our plan will be to work closely with scientific, regulatory and ethical experts to ensure this technology develops safely and responsibly.” From their homepage

skulk 5y ago

How much does ethics even matter in this specific case? If they develop this technology and use it in a "maximally ethical" way, whatever that is, what is stopping the next person to get their hands on it from using it unethically? It seems to me that the ethics question was "Should we have this technology at all?" and not "What do we do with it?" and it's already been answered.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
I agree with you completely - I was just trying to make the point that they claim to care about ethics and yet have no ethicists from what it appears.