4 ms·

> The problem with X11 drawing commands is that there are a lot of round-trips over the network. This is not a problem with drawing commands or the fact that t

by sprash 5y ago

> The problem with X11 drawing commands is that there are a lot of round-trips over the network. This is not a problem with drawing commands or the fact that the X11 wire protocol supposedly inefficient (it is actually very efficient). It is a problem of GTK and Qt that introduce unnecessary round trips. Both tooklits (which are mainly the reason the Linux never took off because they are pure garbage) never cared in the least about remote applications. As comparison libXt based toolkits like motif run perfectly fine over the network and are very responsive.

md8z 5y ago
I'd advise against using hyperbole and dismissing projects as "pure garbage". I tried to ask you this before but I would be really interested to know what your use case for motif is in 2021. That seems like a recipe for pain and frustration, significantly moreso than any pain and frustration you would have had with GTK and Qt.
- sprash 5y ago
  Instead of playing the strengths of the UNIX desktop they are purposefully omitting them and trying to be a subpar copy of Windows/Mac all while throwing backwards compatibility out of the window for no apparent reason on a regular basis. They are pure garbage to such an extent that they appear to be deliberate sabotage.
  - md8z 5y ago
    I'm curious as to why you think Motif "plays to the strengths of the Unix desktop" or what those strengths would be. I don't believe Motif has ever been particularly popular among GUI developers, it seems to me the only reason it was used was because it was the only real option on Unix for a while. Also please avoid assuming bad faith and suggesting without evidence that something is "sabotage".
  - destructionator 5y ago
    > while throwing backwards compatibility out of the window for no apparent reason on a regular basis. They are pure garbage to such an extent that they appear to be deliberate sabotage. This is exactly how I feel about Wayland. It is gratuitously incompatible and its proponents regularly lie about X to push it. Makes me think they want to give desktop Linux a finishing blow.
    - md8z 5y ago
      I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say "proponents", Wayland and X are mostly being developed by the same people. I don't see why they would lie about their own software. Also, if you look into it, you'll find everything that was redesigned in Wayland and broke backwards compatibility was done for a reason.
      - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
        It is always your own software the one you want to rewrite, because "the second time you'll get it right".
        md8z 5y ago
        Well, I think Wayland is going to avoid the "second-system effect" as it was intentionally designed to be smaller and less grandiose than X. http://catb.org/jargon/html/S/second-system-effect.html http://catb.org/jargon/html/S/second-system-effect.html
        destructionator 5y ago
        But the reality is those features were added to the first thing for reasons. Which means there's user pressure to add them again... which means the second system effect is virtually impossible to avoid. See for yourself: https://wayland.app/protocols/ https://wayland.app/protocols/ And unlike the first system, it doesn't have the experience of use to refine it.

by sprash 5y ago

md8z 5y ago

I'd advise against using hyperbole and dismissing projects as "pure garbage". I tried to ask you this before but I would be really interested to know what your use case for motif is in 2021. That seems like a recipe for pain and frustration, significantly moreso than any pain and frustration you would have had with GTK and Qt.

sprash 5y ago
Instead of playing the strengths of the UNIX desktop they are purposefully omitting them and trying to be a subpar copy of Windows/Mac all while throwing backwards compatibility out of the window for no apparent reason on a regular basis. They are pure garbage to such an extent that they appear to be deliberate sabotage.
- md8z 5y ago
  I'm curious as to why you think Motif "plays to the strengths of the Unix desktop" or what those strengths would be. I don't believe Motif has ever been particularly popular among GUI developers, it seems to me the only reason it was used was because it was the only real option on Unix for a while. Also please avoid assuming bad faith and suggesting without evidence that something is "sabotage".
- destructionator 5y ago
  > while throwing backwards compatibility out of the window for no apparent reason on a regular basis. They are pure garbage to such an extent that they appear to be deliberate sabotage. This is exactly how I feel about Wayland. It is gratuitously incompatible and its proponents regularly lie about X to push it. Makes me think they want to give desktop Linux a finishing blow.
  - md8z 5y ago
    I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say "proponents", Wayland and X are mostly being developed by the same people. I don't see why they would lie about their own software. Also, if you look into it, you'll find everything that was redesigned in Wayland and broke backwards compatibility was done for a reason.
    - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
      It is always your own software the one you want to rewrite, because "the second time you'll get it right".
      - md8z 5y ago
        Well, I think Wayland is going to avoid the "second-system effect" as it was intentionally designed to be smaller and less grandiose than X. http://catb.org/jargon/html/S/second-system-effect.html http://catb.org/jargon/html/S/second-system-effect.html
        destructionator 5y ago
        But the reality is those features were added to the first thing for reasons. Which means there's user pressure to add them again... which means the second system effect is virtually impossible to avoid. See for yourself: https://wayland.app/protocols/ https://wayland.app/protocols/ And unlike the first system, it doesn't have the experience of use to refine it.