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Iron-air batteries are literally just fuel cells that involve iron instead of hydrogen. THe odds on favorite is hydrogen fuel cells and it probably can’t be any

by Hypx_ 5y ago

Iron-air batteries are literally just fuel cells that involve iron instead of hydrogen. THe odds on favorite is hydrogen fuel cells and it probably can’t be anything else (short of some kind of nuclear solution).

ncmncm 5y ago
You keep saying so, but what I am seeing is serious plans for iron, and synthesizing NH3 as portable fuel, but very little activity on H2. Is there actually any current work on industrial-scale H2 synthesis for storage, as opposed to for use in e.g. steel production or fuel?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I Googled around for this some time ago and found quite a few grid-storage projects in the US and Europe (both public and private), but I don’t have links handy at the moment. They all seem to be pretty early-days IIRC. But yes, mostly you have to sift through a lot of results related to transportation fuel cells.
- Hypx_ 5y ago
  It should be noted that using hydrogen for steel or fuel production lead almost directly leads to some kind of hydrogen storage. If you can make that much hydrogen, it just becomes a natural step to use it as a energy storage system. Also, the scale of hydrogen storage facilities far exceeds anything else ever proposed: https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2021/10/23/weekend-read-australias-massive-hydrogen-storage-potential/ https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2021/10/23/weekend-rea... It's clear that obsessing over the last step is unnecessary. As soon as you have the hydrogen available, there will be many obvious solutions available.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    I don't doubt that, once hydrogen becomes heavily used as a fuel--exclusively for aviation, I expect--it will then also become useful, secondarily, as a storage medium for utility power. But the first condition is barely even in planning stages, if there. By the time hydrogen as bulk fuel does happen, other storage for utility power will be very mature, and hydrogen will need really compelling advantages to be able to compete in places where it is not already being stored as aviation fuel. The cited article points out that utility-grade storage in salt caverns is still a wholly hypothetical possibility, and speculates on problems that might yet render it impractical.
    - Hypx_ 5y ago
      It's advantage is that fact that it stores multiple orders of magnitude more energy than anything else, at a cost level that is orders of magnitude cheaper too. It's a matter of when, not if, hydrogen becomes the primary energy storage mechanism. Storing hydrogen underground has existed for decades. It's already been accepted by people in the industry that this is a solved problem.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        Yet, the article you cited yourself says the opposite: that it needs study to determine its practicality. I don't doubt that whatever problems turn up will be solved, in time. Underground storage of liquified hydrogen, rather than gas under high pressure, seems like a great idea, since earth is such a good insulator, but they don't seem to be talking much about LH2. The methods used to oxidize H2 seem to produce a great amount of waste heat. If you have uses for the heat, that may be not so bad. But producing power from stored H2 at GW rates would produce more heat than is easily used on the same schedule as the power is demanded. The heat could also be banked underground, maybe, but there remains the problem of delivering it where it is actually needed.
        Hypx_ 5y ago
        I don't think you are even trying to read what they are saying. All they're testing is how well the hydrogen will stay underground and how tight the seal is for all of the various formations. We already know it works.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        The only GW-scale H2 storage I find is the project in Utah, which starting 2025 and for the foreseeable future will be used to augment CH4 combustion to drive turbines.
        Hypx_ 5y ago
        It's the only one with real notoriety right now. But there are many projects. For example: https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/equinor-sse-announce-humber-hydrogen-21055202 https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/equinor...

by Hypx_ 5y ago

ncmncm 5y ago

You keep saying so, but what I am seeing is serious plans for iron, and synthesizing NH3 as portable fuel, but very little activity on H2. Is there actually any current work on industrial-scale H2 synthesis for storage, as opposed to for use in e.g. steel production or fuel?

throwaway894345 5y ago
I Googled around for this some time ago and found quite a few grid-storage projects in the US and Europe (both public and private), but I don’t have links handy at the moment. They all seem to be pretty early-days IIRC. But yes, mostly you have to sift through a lot of results related to transportation fuel cells.
Hypx_ 5y ago
It should be noted that using hydrogen for steel or fuel production lead almost directly leads to some kind of hydrogen storage. If you can make that much hydrogen, it just becomes a natural step to use it as a energy storage system. Also, the scale of hydrogen storage facilities far exceeds anything else ever proposed: https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2021/10/23/weekend-read-australias-massive-hydrogen-storage-potential/ https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2021/10/23/weekend-rea... It's clear that obsessing over the last step is unnecessary. As soon as you have the hydrogen available, there will be many obvious solutions available.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  I don't doubt that, once hydrogen becomes heavily used as a fuel--exclusively for aviation, I expect--it will then also become useful, secondarily, as a storage medium for utility power. But the first condition is barely even in planning stages, if there. By the time hydrogen as bulk fuel does happen, other storage for utility power will be very mature, and hydrogen will need really compelling advantages to be able to compete in places where it is not already being stored as aviation fuel. The cited article points out that utility-grade storage in salt caverns is still a wholly hypothetical possibility, and speculates on problems that might yet render it impractical.
  - Hypx_ 5y ago
    It's advantage is that fact that it stores multiple orders of magnitude more energy than anything else, at a cost level that is orders of magnitude cheaper too. It's a matter of when, not if, hydrogen becomes the primary energy storage mechanism. Storing hydrogen underground has existed for decades. It's already been accepted by people in the industry that this is a solved problem.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Yet, the article you cited yourself says the opposite: that it needs study to determine its practicality. I don't doubt that whatever problems turn up will be solved, in time. Underground storage of liquified hydrogen, rather than gas under high pressure, seems like a great idea, since earth is such a good insulator, but they don't seem to be talking much about LH2. The methods used to oxidize H2 seem to produce a great amount of waste heat. If you have uses for the heat, that may be not so bad. But producing power from stored H2 at GW rates would produce more heat than is easily used on the same schedule as the power is demanded. The heat could also be banked underground, maybe, but there remains the problem of delivering it where it is actually needed.
      - Hypx_ 5y ago
        I don't think you are even trying to read what they are saying. All they're testing is how well the hydrogen will stay underground and how tight the seal is for all of the various formations. We already know it works.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        The only GW-scale H2 storage I find is the project in Utah, which starting 2025 and for the foreseeable future will be used to augment CH4 combustion to drive turbines.
        Hypx_ 5y ago
        It's the only one with real notoriety right now. But there are many projects. For example: https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/equinor-sse-announce-humber-hydrogen-21055202 https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/equinor...