5 ms·

Ithkuil IV Language FAQ

74 points by xvilka 5y ago

optimalsolver 5y ago
There's a fascinating New Yorker article on Ithkuil and constructed languages in general: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beginners https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-be...
smitty1e 5y ago
Wow. After reviewing a couple of the pages, that appears to be to human languages what C++ is to programming. Which is intended to be descriptive, not pejorative.
- LudwigNagasena 5y ago
  I would rather compare it to a language for code-golfing: very compact and impractical.
  - mst 5y ago
    IthkuAPL? (sorry)
- techman9 5y ago
  This article [0] covers its fascinating history and adoption by somewhat unsavory characters. [0] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beginners https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-be...
  - smitty1e 5y ago
    What a great link. Thank you. My own little personally obsessive python project is far more modest, but at least gives insight to the motivation.
bradrn 5y ago
For anyone who hasn’t run into Ithkuil before, it’s basically an attempt at creating a language which is as precise and concise as possible: > an idealized language whose aim is the highest possible degree of logic, efficiency, detail, and accuracy in cognitive expression via spoken human language, while minimizing the ambiguity, vagueness, illogic, redundancy, polysemy (multiple meanings) and overall arbitrariness that is seemingly ubiquitous in natural human language For instance, here is a sample of Ithkuil III (since I can’t seem to find any materials on Ithkuil IV), precisely describing Marcel Duchamp’s Nud descendant un escalier, No. 2: > Aukkras êqutta ogvëuļa tnou’elkwa pal-lši augwaikštülnàmbu. > ‘An imaginary representation of a nude woman in the midst of descending a staircase in a step-by-step series of tightly-integrated ambulatory bodily movements which combine into a three-dimensional wake behind her, forming a timeless, emergent whole to be considered intellectually, emotionally and aesthetically.’ [http://ithkuil.net/texts.html http://ithkuil.net/texts.html]
- IncRnd 5y ago
  This reminds me of standards relating to the various fields of computing. People regularly release new standards to incorporate and supplant the older groups of standards. Then, the newer standards are replaced yet again, continuing in what appears to be an endless cycle.
  - pasquinelli 5y ago
    i suppose that's happening with natural language too.
- cyocum 5y ago
  After looking around a bit, this strongly reminds me of Václav Havel's play, "The Memorandum" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memorandum).
fire 5y ago
jan Misali's Conlang Critic episode on Ithkuil[1] was pretty good, though I don't remember if it mentioned what version of the language was being covered. 1: https://youtu.be/e_n3loSfejg https://youtu.be/e_n3loSfejg ( 6m 27s )
- gjm11 5y ago
  Version III. (0:20..0:25.)
mkotowski 5y ago
> O’yë aitkánz lo’lsöspa kšänhëi’lujmu ih Jonkihada. > ‘The chief clown, John Quijada, is engaged in constructing a new language for the good of everyone.’ (Quijada likes to use clowns in his examples, don’t ask me why) I would like to recommend looking into the most recent script proposal at [0], especially if someone is inclined toward calligraphy. In my humble opinion the script for Ithkuil III and the current proposal adapted from it are both together a work of art in itself. [0]: https://ithkuil.place/4/archive/script/script-v0.3.5-2019-11-19.pdf https://ithkuil.place/4/archive/script/script-v0.3.5-2019-11...
okareaman 5y ago
I don't get this. No one is going to ever speak this language except the creator to himself. If it's not going to be spoken, why limit yourself to representations that can be made in air by normal human beings? If it's not ever spoken, then there are better methods of encoding information.
- ijlx 5y ago
  Well, for someone interested in languages conlanging can just be fun! I don't think most people are under the impression that their language will be popular. It also serves as an interesting "what-if," i.e. what would a language look like if it were designed from the ground up to be as logical as possible. No idea if this is interesting to the average person, but it is to me. However (and I'm not saying this is or will be the case with Ithkuil) there are several constructed languages that do indeed have sizeable communities (the internet has made this easier): esperanto, toki pona, lojban, even klingon has multiple speakers.
- fouc 5y ago
  I don't know about Ithkuil specifically, but I know that lojban is a constructed language that has a small community around it that actively write/speak it amongst each other. But regardless, the whole exercise of creating a new language from scratch is definitely informative.
  - okareaman 5y ago
    I definitely agree. I phrased my comment incorrectly so it sounds like I am being critical, when I was actually thinking of something else.
- mkotowski 5y ago
  > […] why limit yourself to representations that can be made in air by normal human beings? For a constructed language using non-human forms of expression, you can check out Rikchik language, created by Denis M Moskowitz [0]. > No one is going to ever speak this language except the creator to himself. Well, it’s a hobby and an art form. Do you ask someone drawing still life compositions, why he/she is doing this, when photography is a thing? Besides, people DO use the language in this particular example, although more as an interesting pastime activity than a regular language. Granted, constructing languages makes an extremely niche hobby. Still, without it there probably wouldn’t be The Lord of the Rings (for Tolkien’s opinion on language creation, check [1]). There are still people learning Klingon, Lojban, toki pona, Dothraki, and so on. Esperanto and modern Hebrew (to some extent) are also more practical examples of this art. For a more elaborate insight into this hobby, there is the book “In the Land of Invented Languages” by Arika Okrent. [0]: https://www.suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/rikchik.html https://www.suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/rikchik.html [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Secret_Vice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Secret_Vice
dang 5y ago
Past related threads: Ithkuil: A Philosophical Design for a Hypothetical Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20557830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20557830 - July 2019 (29 comments) Utopian for Beginners (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17340757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17340757 - June 2018 (4 comments) Ithkuil: A Philosophical Design for a Hypothetical Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14049712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14049712 - April 2017 (39 comments) Ithkuil: A Philosophical Design for a Hypothetical Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8312842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8312842 - Sept 2014 (2 comments) An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8180493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8180493 - Aug 2014 (106 comments) John Quijada and Ithkuil, the Language He Invented - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5420942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5420942 - March 2013 (27 comments) Ithkuil, an invented language (for humans) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4932205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4932205 - Dec 2012 (2 comments)
ur-whale 5y ago
If you're wondering what Ithkuil is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_x_PQ85_0k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_x_PQ85_0k Here's a spoken (sung) version of it: https://youtu.be/AAJlr5C8fPA?t=166 https://youtu.be/AAJlr5C8fPA?t=166
Zanni 5y ago
Reminds me of Speedtalk [0] from the Heinlein novella "Gulf." [1] Okay, apparently I'm not the first person to make that connection. [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedtalk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedtalk [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_(novella) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_(novella) [2] http://ithkuil.net/faqs.html http://ithkuil.net/faqs.html
transfire 5y ago
Hmmm...links to IV seem to be broken.
smitty1e 5y ago
I'd like to see the translation of Steven Wright's joke about "The feeling when you're sitting in a chair and lean back on two legs and then go too far and nearly fall over but just at the last moment you catch yourself."

74 points by xvilka 5y ago

There's a fascinating New Yorker article on Ithkuil and constructed languages in general: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beginners https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-be...

smitty1e 5y ago

Wow. After reviewing a couple of the pages, that appears to be to human languages what C++ is to programming. Which is intended to be descriptive, not pejorative.

LudwigNagasena 5y ago
I would rather compare it to a language for code-golfing: very compact and impractical.
- mst 5y ago
  IthkuAPL? (sorry)
techman9 5y ago
This article [0] covers its fascinating history and adoption by somewhat unsavory characters. [0] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beginners https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-be...
- smitty1e 5y ago
  What a great link. Thank you. My own little personally obsessive python project is far more modest, but at least gives insight to the motivation.

bradrn 5y ago

For anyone who hasn’t run into Ithkuil before, it’s basically an attempt at creating a language which is as precise and concise as possible: > an idealized language whose aim is the highest possible degree of logic, efficiency, detail, and accuracy in cognitive expression via spoken human language, while minimizing the ambiguity, vagueness, illogic, redundancy, polysemy (multiple meanings) and overall arbitrariness that is seemingly ubiquitous in natural human language For instance, here is a sample of Ithkuil III (since I can’t seem to find any materials on Ithkuil IV), precisely describing Marcel Duchamp’s Nud descendant un escalier, No. 2: > Aukkras êqutta ogvëuļa tnou’elkwa pal-lši augwaikštülnàmbu. > ‘An imaginary representation of a nude woman in the midst of descending a staircase in a step-by-step series of tightly-integrated ambulatory bodily movements which combine into a three-dimensional wake behind her, forming a timeless, emergent whole to be considered intellectually, emotionally and aesthetically.’ [http://ithkuil.net/texts.html http://ithkuil.net/texts.html]

IncRnd 5y ago
This reminds me of standards relating to the various fields of computing. People regularly release new standards to incorporate and supplant the older groups of standards. Then, the newer standards are replaced yet again, continuing in what appears to be an endless cycle.
- pasquinelli 5y ago
  i suppose that's happening with natural language too.
cyocum 5y ago
After looking around a bit, this strongly reminds me of Václav Havel's play, "The Memorandum" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memorandum).

fire 5y ago

jan Misali's Conlang Critic episode on Ithkuil[1] was pretty good, though I don't remember if it mentioned what version of the language was being covered. 1: https://youtu.be/e_n3loSfejg https://youtu.be/e_n3loSfejg ( 6m 27s )

gjm11 5y ago
Version III. (0:20..0:25.)

mkotowski 5y ago

> O’yë aitkánz lo’lsöspa kšänhëi’lujmu ih Jonkihada. > ‘The chief clown, John Quijada, is engaged in constructing a new language for the good of everyone.’ (Quijada likes to use clowns in his examples, don’t ask me why) I would like to recommend looking into the most recent script proposal at [0], especially if someone is inclined toward calligraphy. In my humble opinion the script for Ithkuil III and the current proposal adapted from it are both together a work of art in itself. [0]: https://ithkuil.place/4/archive/script/script-v0.3.5-2019-11-19.pdf https://ithkuil.place/4/archive/script/script-v0.3.5-2019-11...

okareaman 5y ago

I don't get this. No one is going to ever speak this language except the creator to himself. If it's not going to be spoken, why limit yourself to representations that can be made in air by normal human beings? If it's not ever spoken, then there are better methods of encoding information.

ijlx 5y ago
Well, for someone interested in languages conlanging can just be fun! I don't think most people are under the impression that their language will be popular. It also serves as an interesting "what-if," i.e. what would a language look like if it were designed from the ground up to be as logical as possible. No idea if this is interesting to the average person, but it is to me. However (and I'm not saying this is or will be the case with Ithkuil) there are several constructed languages that do indeed have sizeable communities (the internet has made this easier): esperanto, toki pona, lojban, even klingon has multiple speakers.
fouc 5y ago
I don't know about Ithkuil specifically, but I know that lojban is a constructed language that has a small community around it that actively write/speak it amongst each other. But regardless, the whole exercise of creating a new language from scratch is definitely informative.
- okareaman 5y ago
  I definitely agree. I phrased my comment incorrectly so it sounds like I am being critical, when I was actually thinking of something else.
mkotowski 5y ago
> […] why limit yourself to representations that can be made in air by normal human beings? For a constructed language using non-human forms of expression, you can check out Rikchik language, created by Denis M Moskowitz [0]. > No one is going to ever speak this language except the creator to himself. Well, it’s a hobby and an art form. Do you ask someone drawing still life compositions, why he/she is doing this, when photography is a thing? Besides, people DO use the language in this particular example, although more as an interesting pastime activity than a regular language. Granted, constructing languages makes an extremely niche hobby. Still, without it there probably wouldn’t be The Lord of the Rings (for Tolkien’s opinion on language creation, check [1]). There are still people learning Klingon, Lojban, toki pona, Dothraki, and so on. Esperanto and modern Hebrew (to some extent) are also more practical examples of this art. For a more elaborate insight into this hobby, there is the book “In the Land of Invented Languages” by Arika Okrent. [0]: https://www.suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/rikchik.html https://www.suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/rikchik.html [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Secret_Vice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Secret_Vice

dang 5y ago

Past related threads: Ithkuil: A Philosophical Design for a Hypothetical Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20557830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20557830 - July 2019 (29 comments) Utopian for Beginners (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17340757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17340757 - June 2018 (4 comments) Ithkuil: A Philosophical Design for a Hypothetical Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14049712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14049712 - April 2017 (39 comments) Ithkuil: A Philosophical Design for a Hypothetical Language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8312842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8312842 - Sept 2014 (2 comments) An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8180493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8180493 - Aug 2014 (106 comments) John Quijada and Ithkuil, the Language He Invented - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5420942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5420942 - March 2013 (27 comments) Ithkuil, an invented language (for humans) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4932205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4932205 - Dec 2012 (2 comments)

ur-whale 5y ago

If you're wondering what Ithkuil is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_x_PQ85_0k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_x_PQ85_0k Here's a spoken (sung) version of it: https://youtu.be/AAJlr5C8fPA?t=166 https://youtu.be/AAJlr5C8fPA?t=166

Zanni 5y ago

Reminds me of Speedtalk [0] from the Heinlein novella "Gulf." [1] Okay, apparently I'm not the first person to make that connection. [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedtalk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedtalk [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_(novella) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_(novella) [2] http://ithkuil.net/faqs.html http://ithkuil.net/faqs.html

transfire 5y ago

Hmmm...links to IV seem to be broken.

smitty1e 5y ago

I'd like to see the translation of Steven Wright's joke about "The feeling when you're sitting in a chair and lean back on two legs and then go too far and nearly fall over but just at the last moment you catch yourself."