6 ms·

I mean fluoride is one of the most interactive elements on the periodic table. It’s pretty clear it interacts with the body in pathogenic ways. That’s part of t

I mean fluoride is one of the most interactive elements on the periodic table. It’s pretty clear it interacts with the body in pathogenic ways. That’s part of the reason why it bonds to the enamel of the teeth so well. I don’t think we need to supplement tapwater with fluoride now that toothbrushes and toothpaste are so widely available. You can’t control the dosage since people can drink as much tapwater as they want and still do not know how much they actually are receiving. That being said I highly recommend everybody get a reverse osmosis water filter. Add in some electrolytes and you’re good to go. Edit: Never mind, I was wrong. Fluoride isn't an element. It's somewhat reactive, but not nearly as much as Fluorine.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
latchkey 5y ago
I just bought an RO system of Amazon and it is great. There is a relatively newer design that doesn't require the external pressurization tank and uses a single easily-replaceable filter. The faucet even has a realtime TDS measurement (inlet water is over 400 and the filter brings it down to about 17-18). I put a higher flow filter (doesn't lower the TDS) in front of the RO system so that my regular faucet water is filtered and it extends the life of the RO filter. Takes like 30 minutes to get everything installed. Totally worth it!
- yumraj 5y ago
  Could you share which one?
  - latchkey 5y ago
    10UAW-UF and WD-D6-B
- DantesKite 5y ago
  I'm really fond of the Brondell H2O+ Circle RO filter. It's the best system I've ever used and the filters are so easy to replace it boggles my mind why every other filter isn't like it. It comes with a reverse flush system that makes the RO filter last for years. Takes our water from 250ppm to 12ppm. Used to be around 850ppm but luckily, the city improved its water filtration practices.
vizzier 5y ago
Just note that Flouride and Flourine are very different things. Chlorine is also very highly reactive and dangerous but you think nothing of eating table salt.
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  As with almost all controversial health discussions, everyone loves to talk about elemental chemistry and hates to talk about ionization.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    Yeah, everyone is imagining F2 and CF4, but what we're dealing with is F-, totally different from the other two.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Just look at this video of sodium exploding in water! Now buy my all-natural alternative!
- lend000 5y ago
  You'll find fluorine atoms in a disproportionate number of poisons, while other halogens are much weaker. It really is an anomalous atom and the comparison to Chlorine is not accurate (which is less electronegative than oxygen). I wondered why we don't use something that can also promote crystallization of hydroxyapatite (primary mineral in surface tooth enamel), and apparently it's because carbonate also promotes plaque crystallization. However, if you go to the dentist regularly, it seems an objectively better personal option. The argument for water fluoridation is a macro-argument that looks good from 10,000 feet, but when you apply nuance, such a policy does not benefit (and probably subtly harms) the vast majority of readership on HN, and is more likely to affect the most impoverished who do not brush their teeth regularly and cannot afford or do not prioritize going to the dentist (which is a surprisingly high percentage of the general public). That isn't to say it's a bad policy, but it certainly isn't black and white.
  - 5y ago
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> pretty clear it interacts with the body in pathogenic ways Shouldn't we have mountains of decisive evidence to support this point by now?
- veemjeem 5y ago
  With such a small amount in tap water, it seems like it would be hard to conduct a controlled study.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    Why? A small amount of arsenic or fentanyl wouldn't be difficult to study. There is nothing intrinsic about any number that makes it difficult to perform science.
  - fao_ 5y ago
    Seems like that is also in favour for fluoride being completely safe, then. After all, if you can't measure it, then...
- DantesKite 5y ago
  Yep. Here's one, low-level example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis
Gravityloss 5y ago
What kind of fluoride? Fluoride salts can be extremely stable even at very high temperatures. They were used in prototype molten salt nuclear reactors and uranium hexafluoride gas is used in uranium enrichment.
Spooky23 5y ago
Given that NYC has been fluoridating since 1965, and how insane people are on the topic, I’m sure we would be aware of actual problems long ago.
- DantesKite 5y ago
  Well, I don't think that's a good heuristic for determining whether something is bad. There are plenty historical examples of doctors not washing their hands even when there was substantial evidence suggesting it decreased deaths.
- DantesKite 5y ago
  Yes. We are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis
- nyscof 5y ago
  70th human study links fluoride to neurological damage https://fluoridedangers.blogspot.com/2021/09/70th-human-study-links-fluoride-to.html https://fluoridedangers.blogspot.com/2021/09/70th-human-stud... Prominent scientists proclaim “It is time to protect kids’ developing brains from fluoride” https://www.ehn.org/fluoride-and-childrens-health-2648120286.html https://www.ehn.org/fluoride-and-childrens-health-2648120286... Fluoridation Fails New York City https://fluoridenews.blogspot.com/search?q=New+York+City https://fluoridenews.blogspot.com/search?q=New+York+City A 2012 book by Kozol regarding poor children in the South Bronix (fluoridated since 1965) reports ""Many of the children who attend these schools also suffer the emotional and physical attrition that results from chronic illnesses like asthma and anxiety, as well as the steady and low-level misery of rotting teeth, infected gums, and festering, untreated sores. " https://thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/AmazingGrace_Kozol.html https://thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/AmazingGrace_K... Based on NYS Department of health data researchers found " For every age/race group, there was a consistently significant association of SiF [silicofluoridated] treated community water and elevated blood lead" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11233755/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11233755/ Politic$, not science, supports fluoridation
mizzack 5y ago
Been on RO for a decade. Add a few drops of trace minerals (Concentrace) and it's the best tasting water out there.
jandrewrogers 5y ago
I've worked with fluoride chemistry in the lab, which entails some specific safety protocols due to its effects on the human body if you make a mistake. Your characterization of the health risks to humans is misinformation, particularly at the exposure levels in water regardless of how much you drink. Fluoride aggressively and preferentially binds to calcium in the human body. That's how it protects teeth, the chemicals that cause tooth decay have a weaker affinity for calcium than fluorine, and therefore can't displace it. The mechanism of action for its lethality is the same. Calcium ions are used throughout the human body, notably in the heart for critical signaling functions. If you are exposed to sufficient quantities of fluoride, it will circulate until it finds some calcium in your body, including readily depleting your calcium ion channels which causes your heart to stop working. Human bodies have significant excess calcium floating around. There is simply not enough fluoride in water, no matter how much you drink, to tax those calcium reserves. People have been drinking naturally fluoridated water, some at much higher concentrations than municipal water, for millennia.
- DantesKite 5y ago
  We can argue about the relative safety of fluoride to the human body. Maybe there's a middle ground somewhere, but saying that it is hazardous to your health in excess amounts and that those excess amounts can be found in tap-water isn't controversial nor is it misinformation. For example, as a very basic, low-level example, exposing children to fluoride early on when teeth are forming causes dental fluorosis. This is well-known, well-studied, and not at all controversial. And in fact, tap water is the most common source of dental fluorosis.[1] Now there are clear benefits to fluoride: It can be used in a variety of circumstances and probably has done humanity a net good, especially in areas where dental hygiene (for whatever reason) isn't well understood or well-practiced. But there's clearly a level where it's not safe to expose to human beings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

latchkey 5y ago

I just bought an RO system of Amazon and it is great. There is a relatively newer design that doesn't require the external pressurization tank and uses a single easily-replaceable filter. The faucet even has a realtime TDS measurement (inlet water is over 400 and the filter brings it down to about 17-18). I put a higher flow filter (doesn't lower the TDS) in front of the RO system so that my regular faucet water is filtered and it extends the life of the RO filter. Takes like 30 minutes to get everything installed. Totally worth it!

yumraj 5y ago
Could you share which one?
- latchkey 5y ago
  10UAW-UF and WD-D6-B
DantesKite 5y ago
I'm really fond of the Brondell H2O+ Circle RO filter. It's the best system I've ever used and the filters are so easy to replace it boggles my mind why every other filter isn't like it. It comes with a reverse flush system that makes the RO filter last for years. Takes our water from 250ppm to 12ppm. Used to be around 850ppm but luckily, the city improved its water filtration practices.

vizzier 5y ago

Just note that Flouride and Flourine are very different things. Chlorine is also very highly reactive and dangerous but you think nothing of eating table salt.

RC_ITR 5y ago
As with almost all controversial health discussions, everyone loves to talk about elemental chemistry and hates to talk about ionization.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  Yeah, everyone is imagining F2 and CF4, but what we're dealing with is F-, totally different from the other two.
jjoonathan 5y ago
Just look at this video of sodium exploding in water! Now buy my all-natural alternative!
lend000 5y ago
You'll find fluorine atoms in a disproportionate number of poisons, while other halogens are much weaker. It really is an anomalous atom and the comparison to Chlorine is not accurate (which is less electronegative than oxygen). I wondered why we don't use something that can also promote crystallization of hydroxyapatite (primary mineral in surface tooth enamel), and apparently it's because carbonate also promotes plaque crystallization. However, if you go to the dentist regularly, it seems an objectively better personal option. The argument for water fluoridation is a macro-argument that looks good from 10,000 feet, but when you apply nuance, such a policy does not benefit (and probably subtly harms) the vast majority of readership on HN, and is more likely to affect the most impoverished who do not brush their teeth regularly and cannot afford or do not prioritize going to the dentist (which is a surprisingly high percentage of the general public). That isn't to say it's a bad policy, but it certainly isn't black and white.
- 5y ago

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> pretty clear it interacts with the body in pathogenic ways Shouldn't we have mountains of decisive evidence to support this point by now?

veemjeem 5y ago
With such a small amount in tap water, it seems like it would be hard to conduct a controlled study.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  Why? A small amount of arsenic or fentanyl wouldn't be difficult to study. There is nothing intrinsic about any number that makes it difficult to perform science.
- fao_ 5y ago
  Seems like that is also in favour for fluoride being completely safe, then. After all, if you can't measure it, then...
DantesKite 5y ago
Yep. Here's one, low-level example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis

Gravityloss 5y ago

What kind of fluoride? Fluoride salts can be extremely stable even at very high temperatures. They were used in prototype molten salt nuclear reactors and uranium hexafluoride gas is used in uranium enrichment.

Spooky23 5y ago

Given that NYC has been fluoridating since 1965, and how insane people are on the topic, I’m sure we would be aware of actual problems long ago.

DantesKite 5y ago
Well, I don't think that's a good heuristic for determining whether something is bad. There are plenty historical examples of doctors not washing their hands even when there was substantial evidence suggesting it decreased deaths.
DantesKite 5y ago
Yes. We are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis
nyscof 5y ago
70th human study links fluoride to neurological damage https://fluoridedangers.blogspot.com/2021/09/70th-human-study-links-fluoride-to.html https://fluoridedangers.blogspot.com/2021/09/70th-human-stud... Prominent scientists proclaim “It is time to protect kids’ developing brains from fluoride” https://www.ehn.org/fluoride-and-childrens-health-2648120286.html https://www.ehn.org/fluoride-and-childrens-health-2648120286... Fluoridation Fails New York City https://fluoridenews.blogspot.com/search?q=New+York+City https://fluoridenews.blogspot.com/search?q=New+York+City A 2012 book by Kozol regarding poor children in the South Bronix (fluoridated since 1965) reports ""Many of the children who attend these schools also suffer the emotional and physical attrition that results from chronic illnesses like asthma and anxiety, as well as the steady and low-level misery of rotting teeth, infected gums, and festering, untreated sores. " https://thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/AmazingGrace_Kozol.html https://thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/AmazingGrace_K... Based on NYS Department of health data researchers found " For every age/race group, there was a consistently significant association of SiF [silicofluoridated] treated community water and elevated blood lead" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11233755/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11233755/ Politic$, not science, supports fluoridation

mizzack 5y ago

Been on RO for a decade. Add a few drops of trace minerals (Concentrace) and it's the best tasting water out there.

jandrewrogers 5y ago

I've worked with fluoride chemistry in the lab, which entails some specific safety protocols due to its effects on the human body if you make a mistake. Your characterization of the health risks to humans is misinformation, particularly at the exposure levels in water regardless of how much you drink. Fluoride aggressively and preferentially binds to calcium in the human body. That's how it protects teeth, the chemicals that cause tooth decay have a weaker affinity for calcium than fluorine, and therefore can't displace it. The mechanism of action for its lethality is the same. Calcium ions are used throughout the human body, notably in the heart for critical signaling functions. If you are exposed to sufficient quantities of fluoride, it will circulate until it finds some calcium in your body, including readily depleting your calcium ion channels which causes your heart to stop working. Human bodies have significant excess calcium floating around. There is simply not enough fluoride in water, no matter how much you drink, to tax those calcium reserves. People have been drinking naturally fluoridated water, some at much higher concentrations than municipal water, for millennia.

DantesKite 5y ago
We can argue about the relative safety of fluoride to the human body. Maybe there's a middle ground somewhere, but saying that it is hazardous to your health in excess amounts and that those excess amounts can be found in tap-water isn't controversial nor is it misinformation. For example, as a very basic, low-level example, exposing children to fluoride early on when teeth are forming causes dental fluorosis. This is well-known, well-studied, and not at all controversial. And in fact, tap water is the most common source of dental fluorosis.[1] Now there are clear benefits to fluoride: It can be used in a variety of circumstances and probably has done humanity a net good, especially in areas where dental hygiene (for whatever reason) isn't well understood or well-practiced. But there's clearly a level where it's not safe to expose to human beings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis