5 ms·

I do wonder if there's a culture-wide bug/meme with regards to mental health (and beyond) that makes it hard to push for lifestyle changes at scale. I think on

I do wonder if there's a culture-wide bug/meme with regards to mental health (and beyond) that makes it hard to push for lifestyle changes at scale. I think one such meme is around agency, with the underlying meme being that humans have no control over their circumstances or mental state. They have anxiety or they have depression. It's part of their identity, and these seem to be thought of as immutable diseases. And it's a social faux pas to suggest to someone with anxiety (particularly someone you are not super close with) that if they altered their behavior and consciously tried to work on their thought patterns, that they could get better. In our culture now, that gets translated as 'blaming the victim', because with a victim mindset, such a suggestion implies that it's the fault of the person. It's an unfortunate state of affairs. It feels like we are increasingly leaning into concepts such as an 'external locus of control' and 'learned helplessness' as a society. I don't know how we can push back on these ideas at scale, but if we don't, it's hard not seeing mental health issues and the externalities of the easy pharmacological solutions expand.

iammisc 5y ago
You're absolutely right. This is an unpopular opinion, but I don't think anxiety or depression are mental illness. They are just feelings. Your feelings do not make you ill... People attribute it to a 'chemical' imbalance, but your brain being run by chemical fluctuations, everything is a 'chemical' balance, including this comment I'm typing right now. What we've done is taken these brain fluctuations, and labeled them bad, without addressing why one's brain is thinking this. I am an anxious person. I have had several terrible things happen to me that have led to prolonged periods of depression. Ultimately, these things are a choice, and people need to be taught good skills for coping with the sad realities of life. Life is ultimately a long series of sufferings, ending in death, which one can either choose to embrace or to worry about. Unfortunately, as a society we have stopped teaching all the traditional tools one would use to get oneself out of such funks.
- vettedvat 5y ago
  You're describing situational depression. Very different than major depressive disorder or dysthymia for which these drugs are often prescribed. Common mistake.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    'Major depressive disorder' is just situational depression applied to every situation. Common mistake. Many psychiatrists and psychologists make the same mistake. Many psychiatrists, by virtue of their education, are part of a class of people who are themselves more prone to depression and anxiety, so we probably shouldn't be looking to them for great advice.
    - vettedvat 5y ago
      Wrong again, a psychologist would not make that mistake. They know what those words mean; you just googled them. Luckily you didn't even try explain away dysthymia from your armchair because, well, you have nothing to stand on. > Many psychiatrists, by virtue of their education, are part of a class of people who are themselves more prone to depression and anxiety Yikes, now we're just on to blind speculation.
      - iammisc 5y ago
        > Yikes, now we're just on to blind speculation. Not at all. More educated people tend to be more anxious and more depressed. https://www.originsrecovery.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/High-intelligence-risk-factor-for-psychological-and-physiological-health.pdf https://www.originsrecovery.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/H... The fact that we trust those more prone to depression to solve depression should not be discounted. When it comes to 'dysthymia'. The only reason we find it to be a disease is that we expect people to be happy all the time. We've labeled anything other than that as diseased. As I stated elsewhere, I do not believe in happiness. Most of my day is spent neither sad nor happy. Were I to be sad all the time, I don't think that's particularly interesting either. Our society is not set up with space for people to not be happy. Society is ill, not the people.
- ghostbrainalpha 5y ago
  What are the traditional tools we can use to get ourselves out of depression? Exercise probably?
  - forgotmypw17 5y ago
    In one of her books, Atwood describes a community which allowed people to be in a "fallow" state for as long as they needed it, taking care of their basic needs, being supportive of them, but otherwise allowing them to ruminate and do nothing as much as they wished. I think depression is an evolutionary response to situations which demand too much of us. It sends us into a state where we must take an extended rest to recharge and rebuild ourselves internally: physically, mentally, emotionally. I think not allowing for this is a huge shortcoming of our society, which considers continuous and stable productivity not only the norm, but a requirement.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Community, shared culture, shared religion. Exercise happens when you do those three things.
    - vettedvat 5y ago
      All 3 are in abundance in Ethiopia. So why are depressive disorders so prevalent there? Folksy phrases aren't a great guide to mental health.
      - iammisc 5y ago
        > So why are depressive disorders so prevalent there Because there's no such thing as 'depressive disorder'. We expect people to be happy, and when they're not, we call them diseased. Nothing is wrong with them. Also, Ethiopia is in the midst of a civil war isn't it?
        vettedvat 5y ago
        False, we expect people to be depressed when depressing things happen, this is normal and called "situational depression," you've confused it with a disorder. Depression has been a problem in Ethiopia for much longer than the conflict in Tigray, despite the abundance of "community, shared culture, shared religion." Looks like it takes more than that...
retrac 5y ago
> And it's a social faux pas to suggest to someone with anxiety (particularly someone you are not super close with) that if they altered their behavior and consciously tried to work on their thought patterns, that they could get better. We seem more attuned to emotional distress. And illnesses like anxiety present as acute distress, usually. We naturally want to assuage the person. And a person with anxiety naturally learns all sorts of avoidant coping mechanisms. We seem to have entered some sort of negative feedback cycle there. Medications do help some, but it goes best with therapy, and the mainstay is basically exposure therapy. Face your fears, and struggle through something uncomfortable, until you learn to tolerate it. People should be gently nudged in that direction, not encouraged to lean into their withdrawal from the negative triggers.
gbjw 5y ago
Cf. 'The Myth of Mental Illness' by Thomas Szasz (1961): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness
_ktx2 5y ago
I was on SSRIs for a time until my thoughts became so irreversibly cloudy that I weened off and stopped. After that I coincidentally stopped drinking, my weight dropped, and now I've stopped using weed for the most part. My anxiety doesn't go away, even if I go ride my bike for hours. The things that give me anxiety are largely social. How people think of me at work, my appearance, what women think of me, and how they perceive how I act. The only thing that helps is shutting these thoughts down with CBT. I've dubbed this my, "Nobody cares Mother Fucker™" routine. I've noticed relying on my friends to vent just sours relationships. As much as people gloat about support systems, it's mainly a farce. People will only tolerate hearing so much of your internal dissonance, concerns, and stressors. People want to enjoy you, for the most part. Maybe a partner will be there for you, but not likely in my experience (though, I'm unmarried, so take what I say with a grain of salt.)
- User23 5y ago
  > I was on SSRIs for a time until my thoughts became so irreversibly cloudy that I weened off and stopped. After that I coincidentally stopped drinking, my weight dropped, and now I've stopped using weed for the most part. My anxiety doesn't go away, even if I go ride my bike for hours. You may want to try a primarily anaerobic exercise like lifting weights to supplement your cardio. Your mileage may vary, but I personally get a huge endorphin rush from a heavy[1] deadlift. It's so powerful that it takes an effort to not start hugging other people at the gym. > I've noticed relying on my friends to vent just sours relationships. As much as people gloat about support systems, it's mainly a farce. People will only tolerate hearing so much of your internal dissonance, concerns, and stressors. People want to enjoy you, for the most part. Maybe a partner will be there for you, but not likely in my experience (though, I'm unmarried, so take what I say with a grain of salt.) More than anything else, people remember how you make them feel. If you're always dumping your negative issues on them, even if they like you, subconsciously they'll learn to associate you with feeling bad and avoid you. A much better approach is to show an interest in your friends and try to sympathize with what's going well in their lives. And I mean really sympathize. Let yourself feel happiness on their behalf. Encourage them to keep it up. Then they will learn that being around you makes them feel good. Once you build up a good feelings battery in the relationship, you can draw down from it a bit when you're feeling down. Dating is a different ball of wax. If you're having trouble with basic friendships then it's probably best to establish some healthy habits there first. [1] https://exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards https://exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards. Bear in mind these are single rep maximum effort, which an untrained person isn't likely to properly do.
mjevans 5y ago
Consider a hypothetical solution. There's a place similar to 'college' but focused on adults. Admittance to that college is free. Anyone can attend. Room, board, meal plan. At least some classes must be attended; though the term 'class' is vague. For some a class might just be seeing a councilor to talk things over, or some other doctor prescribed treatment routine. Some of the classes should be group activities that are cooperation based rather than rivalry based. The focus should be on establishing the expectation of positive interactions and experiences. Also about helping to train people to respond to others in the same way. Suddenly, I think I'm describing kindergarten for adults from an amateur psychological perspective.
- ciphol 5y ago
  The problem is that college selects for intelligent, functional, successful people. Whereas this institution (yes I used that word) would select for dysfunctional people. So it would be less pleasant, and the likelihood of making high-quality friends lower.

iammisc 5y ago

You're absolutely right. This is an unpopular opinion, but I don't think anxiety or depression are mental illness. They are just feelings. Your feelings do not make you ill... People attribute it to a 'chemical' imbalance, but your brain being run by chemical fluctuations, everything is a 'chemical' balance, including this comment I'm typing right now. What we've done is taken these brain fluctuations, and labeled them bad, without addressing why one's brain is thinking this. I am an anxious person. I have had several terrible things happen to me that have led to prolonged periods of depression. Ultimately, these things are a choice, and people need to be taught good skills for coping with the sad realities of life. Life is ultimately a long series of sufferings, ending in death, which one can either choose to embrace or to worry about. Unfortunately, as a society we have stopped teaching all the traditional tools one would use to get oneself out of such funks.

vettedvat 5y ago
You're describing situational depression. Very different than major depressive disorder or dysthymia for which these drugs are often prescribed. Common mistake.
- iammisc 5y ago
  'Major depressive disorder' is just situational depression applied to every situation. Common mistake. Many psychiatrists and psychologists make the same mistake. Many psychiatrists, by virtue of their education, are part of a class of people who are themselves more prone to depression and anxiety, so we probably shouldn't be looking to them for great advice.
  - vettedvat 5y ago
    Wrong again, a psychologist would not make that mistake. They know what those words mean; you just googled them. Luckily you didn't even try explain away dysthymia from your armchair because, well, you have nothing to stand on. > Many psychiatrists, by virtue of their education, are part of a class of people who are themselves more prone to depression and anxiety Yikes, now we're just on to blind speculation.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      > Yikes, now we're just on to blind speculation. Not at all. More educated people tend to be more anxious and more depressed. https://www.originsrecovery.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/High-intelligence-risk-factor-for-psychological-and-physiological-health.pdf https://www.originsrecovery.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/H... The fact that we trust those more prone to depression to solve depression should not be discounted. When it comes to 'dysthymia'. The only reason we find it to be a disease is that we expect people to be happy all the time. We've labeled anything other than that as diseased. As I stated elsewhere, I do not believe in happiness. Most of my day is spent neither sad nor happy. Were I to be sad all the time, I don't think that's particularly interesting either. Our society is not set up with space for people to not be happy. Society is ill, not the people.
ghostbrainalpha 5y ago
What are the traditional tools we can use to get ourselves out of depression? Exercise probably?
- forgotmypw17 5y ago
  In one of her books, Atwood describes a community which allowed people to be in a "fallow" state for as long as they needed it, taking care of their basic needs, being supportive of them, but otherwise allowing them to ruminate and do nothing as much as they wished. I think depression is an evolutionary response to situations which demand too much of us. It sends us into a state where we must take an extended rest to recharge and rebuild ourselves internally: physically, mentally, emotionally. I think not allowing for this is a huge shortcoming of our society, which considers continuous and stable productivity not only the norm, but a requirement.
- iammisc 5y ago
  Community, shared culture, shared religion. Exercise happens when you do those three things.
  - vettedvat 5y ago
    All 3 are in abundance in Ethiopia. So why are depressive disorders so prevalent there? Folksy phrases aren't a great guide to mental health.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      > So why are depressive disorders so prevalent there Because there's no such thing as 'depressive disorder'. We expect people to be happy, and when they're not, we call them diseased. Nothing is wrong with them. Also, Ethiopia is in the midst of a civil war isn't it?
      - vettedvat 5y ago
        False, we expect people to be depressed when depressing things happen, this is normal and called "situational depression," you've confused it with a disorder. Depression has been a problem in Ethiopia for much longer than the conflict in Tigray, despite the abundance of "community, shared culture, shared religion." Looks like it takes more than that...

retrac 5y ago

> And it's a social faux pas to suggest to someone with anxiety (particularly someone you are not super close with) that if they altered their behavior and consciously tried to work on their thought patterns, that they could get better. We seem more attuned to emotional distress. And illnesses like anxiety present as acute distress, usually. We naturally want to assuage the person. And a person with anxiety naturally learns all sorts of avoidant coping mechanisms. We seem to have entered some sort of negative feedback cycle there. Medications do help some, but it goes best with therapy, and the mainstay is basically exposure therapy. Face your fears, and struggle through something uncomfortable, until you learn to tolerate it. People should be gently nudged in that direction, not encouraged to lean into their withdrawal from the negative triggers.

gbjw 5y ago

Cf. 'The Myth of Mental Illness' by Thomas Szasz (1961): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness

_ktx2 5y ago

I was on SSRIs for a time until my thoughts became so irreversibly cloudy that I weened off and stopped. After that I coincidentally stopped drinking, my weight dropped, and now I've stopped using weed for the most part. My anxiety doesn't go away, even if I go ride my bike for hours. The things that give me anxiety are largely social. How people think of me at work, my appearance, what women think of me, and how they perceive how I act. The only thing that helps is shutting these thoughts down with CBT. I've dubbed this my, "Nobody cares Mother Fucker™" routine. I've noticed relying on my friends to vent just sours relationships. As much as people gloat about support systems, it's mainly a farce. People will only tolerate hearing so much of your internal dissonance, concerns, and stressors. People want to enjoy you, for the most part. Maybe a partner will be there for you, but not likely in my experience (though, I'm unmarried, so take what I say with a grain of salt.)

User23 5y ago
> I was on SSRIs for a time until my thoughts became so irreversibly cloudy that I weened off and stopped. After that I coincidentally stopped drinking, my weight dropped, and now I've stopped using weed for the most part. My anxiety doesn't go away, even if I go ride my bike for hours. You may want to try a primarily anaerobic exercise like lifting weights to supplement your cardio. Your mileage may vary, but I personally get a huge endorphin rush from a heavy[1] deadlift. It's so powerful that it takes an effort to not start hugging other people at the gym. > I've noticed relying on my friends to vent just sours relationships. As much as people gloat about support systems, it's mainly a farce. People will only tolerate hearing so much of your internal dissonance, concerns, and stressors. People want to enjoy you, for the most part. Maybe a partner will be there for you, but not likely in my experience (though, I'm unmarried, so take what I say with a grain of salt.) More than anything else, people remember how you make them feel. If you're always dumping your negative issues on them, even if they like you, subconsciously they'll learn to associate you with feeling bad and avoid you. A much better approach is to show an interest in your friends and try to sympathize with what's going well in their lives. And I mean really sympathize. Let yourself feel happiness on their behalf. Encourage them to keep it up. Then they will learn that being around you makes them feel good. Once you build up a good feelings battery in the relationship, you can draw down from it a bit when you're feeling down. Dating is a different ball of wax. If you're having trouble with basic friendships then it's probably best to establish some healthy habits there first. [1] https://exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards https://exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards. Bear in mind these are single rep maximum effort, which an untrained person isn't likely to properly do.

mjevans 5y ago

Consider a hypothetical solution. There's a place similar to 'college' but focused on adults. Admittance to that college is free. Anyone can attend. Room, board, meal plan. At least some classes must be attended; though the term 'class' is vague. For some a class might just be seeing a councilor to talk things over, or some other doctor prescribed treatment routine. Some of the classes should be group activities that are cooperation based rather than rivalry based. The focus should be on establishing the expectation of positive interactions and experiences. Also about helping to train people to respond to others in the same way. Suddenly, I think I'm describing kindergarten for adults from an amateur psychological perspective.

ciphol 5y ago
The problem is that college selects for intelligent, functional, successful people. Whereas this institution (yes I used that word) would select for dysfunctional people. So it would be less pleasant, and the likelihood of making high-quality friends lower.