8 ms·

The Fluoride Wars Rage On

37 points by Wildgoose 5y ago

efirman 5y ago
Fluoride works both topically and systemically to reduce tooth decay and is delivered through water, salt, milk, toothpaste, varnish, rinse depending on age, country of origin, income etc. For children ages 0-8 it is incorporated into the enamel of the teeth growing under the gums. After that, the mechanism is largely "topical" - however, that includes fluoride ions incorporated into the saliva and plaque in the process of ingesting it. Sipping water throughout the day bathes the teeth in fluoride each time and allows there to be a very small but impactful amount of fluoride in the mouth environment. This assists in the remineralizations of teeth enamel after acid attacks. The "topical vs. systemic" debate is a bit of a red herring. Its asking how does it work, not if it works. The evidence is clear that fluoridation does work to prevent tooth decay.https://fluorideexposed.org/fluoridescience/fluoride-mechanism-of-action https://fluorideexposed.org/fluoridescience/fluoride-mechani... additionally, a recent economic review of fluoridation found that the benefits in terms of reduced cavity rates and related dental costs outweigh the cost of implementing the strategy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6171335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6171335/
bondarchuk 5y ago
>Many dentists, having seen what life was like before fluoridation, have no interest in returning to the pre-fluoridation era of widespread cavities, abscesses, dentures and people in pain. Is that really true? I live in a country without drinking water medication (thank god) and it's not such a horror story as this article makes it sound. I know that dental health was worse in the past and has improved since, but it doesn't seem to be due to water fluoridation but rather other advances in dentistry and personal dental care.
- DantesKite 5y ago
  Right? We even have electric toothbrushes now which are way better than manual toothbrushes. Maybe if it was the 18th century and we somehow had access to fluoride it would be justified.
  - ssully 5y ago
    Electric toothbrushes have become more affordable, but they are still pretty expensive, especially for people who are low income.
    - gnabgib 5y ago
      I don't think this is fair? Perhaps you haven't seen the $4 electric brushes.. perhaps they're not as good as the $80+ devices, but it's still an improvement over manual brushing. I've even seen them used in "buy N grocery products get a free electric toothbrush" promotions (I want to say it was a cereal company)
- browningstreet 5y ago
  I asked my pediatric dentist (our city was flirting with de-flouridating), and he produced a number of studies where cities with unfluoridated water had significantly higher rates of those tooth issues mentioned. It also impacts lower income communities more, possibly because the supplies of and access to dental care aren't what middle class and higher communities are accustomed to.
  - nyscof 5y ago
    Many studies show ceasing fluoridation doesn't increase tooth decay https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nyscof-report-fluoride-dentists-magic-bullet-is-shooting-blanks-137713193.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nyscof-report-fluor...
    - efirman 5y ago
      many studies who the impact of not providing community water fluoridation: https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12903-018-0684-2 https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12... https://ucalgary.ca/news/study-shows-tooth-decay-worsened-calgary-children-after-fluoride-removal https://ucalgary.ca/news/study-shows-tooth-decay-worsened-ca... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925000/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925000/
      - nyscof 5y ago
        In Chile where water and milk is fluoridated, "both public measures have no direct or remarkable effect on dental health" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28453591/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28453591/
        efirman 5y ago
        Thanks for sharing that article. In reading it I noticed a few things: 1) the primary author is a well published structural engineer. The article was billed as review of the medical literature, so this is an odd match in regards to expertise and content. Their first co-author does have MD, MPH credentials, but they were fairly green having published only one other article. The journal itself seems legit and has been around for 100+ years. In looking at the content 1) The methodology was essentially one paragraph and in execution it appears they cherry picked the literature and did not clearly indicate concentration of fluoride as they discussed certain postulated effects. 2) Often they reached conclusions based on single studies that do not seem to reflect the current body of evidence. For example, the reference to a Utah study on bone fracture in the elderly population. Many other studies have found opposite results and have been published prior to the publication of this study. 3) Their graphs that show a lack of association of water and salt fluoridation are used as evidence to make the declaration that there is no effect without discussion of causation for that difference. In essence, this piece seems like a regurgitation of soundbites from US advocates opposed to fluoridation. Chile continues its fluoridation program (70% of its population) and milk fluoridation for rural areas https://www.borrowfoundation.org/chile https://www.borrowfoundation.org/chile. The question over how to address cavities rates at the population level in rural areas where water fluoridation is not practical is a good one. And in looking at the evidence on milk fluoridation programs as I considered this article, there is room for further consideration and study there. However; this particular study is not enough to base such a policy discussion/ decision. The US does not currently offer or consider milk fluoridation in rural areas.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Many people in the US don’t have access to dental care. Dentists managed to stay at arms length from insurance in general and many employers don’t offer it. For poor people, access is difficult. Dentistry is optional in Medicaid and many states opt out. My state Medicaid funds dental, but in my county (pop 350k), there are 4 dentists that accept Medicaid dental.
- jws 5y ago
  When added, fluoride is generally adjusted to 0.5-1.5ppm, a bit less than ocean water. Depending where you live, your water supply probably has plenty of fluoride. (Perhaps you can consider it "pre-medicated"). Natural water sources vary widely. Above 2ppm it starts to become a problem. In Africa and China 60% of the population have these levels or higher in their drinking water. Some of the initial studies in the early 1900s which identified fluoride as a factor in dental health were of children in Colorado with discolored, but very strong, teeth. Their water sources were up to 13ppm fluoride.
DantesKite 5y ago
I mean fluoride is one of the most interactive elements on the periodic table. It’s pretty clear it interacts with the body in pathogenic ways. That’s part of the reason why it bonds to the enamel of the teeth so well. I don’t think we need to supplement tapwater with fluoride now that toothbrushes and toothpaste are so widely available. You can’t control the dosage since people can drink as much tapwater as they want and still do not know how much they actually are receiving. That being said I highly recommend everybody get a reverse osmosis water filter. Add in some electrolytes and you’re good to go. Edit: Never mind, I was wrong. Fluoride isn't an element. It's somewhat reactive, but not nearly as much as Fluorine.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- latchkey 5y ago
  I just bought an RO system of Amazon and it is great. There is a relatively newer design that doesn't require the external pressurization tank and uses a single easily-replaceable filter. The faucet even has a realtime TDS measurement (inlet water is over 400 and the filter brings it down to about 17-18). I put a higher flow filter (doesn't lower the TDS) in front of the RO system so that my regular faucet water is filtered and it extends the life of the RO filter. Takes like 30 minutes to get everything installed. Totally worth it!
  - yumraj 5y ago
    Could you share which one?
    - latchkey 5y ago
      10UAW-UF and WD-D6-B
  - DantesKite 5y ago
    I'm really fond of the Brondell H2O+ Circle RO filter. It's the best system I've ever used and the filters are so easy to replace it boggles my mind why every other filter isn't like it. It comes with a reverse flush system that makes the RO filter last for years. Takes our water from 250ppm to 12ppm. Used to be around 850ppm but luckily, the city improved its water filtration practices.
UI_at_80x24 5y ago
My town (~500,000) stopped putting fluoride in the drinking water in Jan 2013. According to the Oral Health 2018 [0] report released by the health unit, the percentage of children with tooth decay or requiring urgent care has increased by 51 per cent in 2016-17 compared to 2011-12. [0] https://www.wechu.org/reports/oral-health-2018-report https://www.wechu.org/reports/oral-health-2018-report
- DantesKite 5y ago
  I wonder how they know whether it’s specifically from a lack of fluoride or because of diet.
  - Permit 5y ago
    What suggests to you that between 2011 and 2016 there was a large shift in children's diets?
    - elliekelly 5y ago
      I’m not the person you replied to but the Affordable Care Act implemented a requirement that health insurance plans offer optional pediatric dental coverage for anyone under 18 and IIRC it requires companies offering dental plans to employees to provide options for family coverage and not just individual plans. I recently posted a similar comment in a thread about drug addiction but perhaps it’s not an increase in cavities so much as it’s an increase in access to affordable pediatric dental care.
  - SkittyDog 5y ago
    They don't know that... it's an anecdote, not an epidemiological study. But you also have no evidence that diets changed drastically for the whole city of 500k people around the same time... Probably because we don't even know what city this is actually referring to. Maybe all 500,000 people all stopped brushing their teeth... Maybe all the dentists left town... Maybe aliens are dosing the town from orbit with radiation weapons. It's not a useful counter-point for you to just assert some alternative causation... Of course there could be other causes, that's literally always true about any causative assertion.
latchkey 5y ago
Fluoride supplementation in water is less of a concern for me than chloramine. All my friends strongly defend the quality of Hetch Hetchy and I just don't get it. Fish can't even live in the water you're drinking. It affects plant growth too. We're showering in this stuff and vaporizing ammonia directly into our lungs.
- SapporoChris 5y ago
  Okay, are there any epidemiological studies indicating a problem with chloramine? https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/chloramines-drinking-water https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/chloramines-drinking-water Chloramines have been used by water utilities since the 1930s. More than one in five Americans uses drinking water treated with chloramines. I need more than hyperbole before I get concerned.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - latchkey 5y ago
    I don't think anything I said was hyperbole. Chloramine is ammonia and chlorine. You heat it up and vaporize it and it splits apart. That's basic chemistry. Ammonia is well-known to be an irritant. We are questioning the addition of fluoride, but not chloramine? But to respond to you, well, that's the thing... there are very few studies. It is one of those things where they just say "trust us" and there isn't much data to back it up in either direction. There are some definite hyperbole websites that suggest it causes (or increases) IBS, which you can google, they come up first in the search results. https://chloramine.org/ccacflier.htm https://chloramine.org/ccacflier.htm https://www.google.com/search?q=chloramine+ibs https://www.google.com/search?q=chloramine+ibs https://www.wired.com/2016/02/chloramines/ https://www.wired.com/2016/02/chloramines/ I was living in San Francisco when they switched. I had two fish tanks and all the fish died immediately upon a water change. I ended up having to add neutralizer to the water. I was also commercially growing some plants in my basement and it definitely had an effect on them. Immediately stunted growth. I did a lot more research and found that chloramine is hard to filter out as well. You need higher quality carbon or RO systems. It doesn't just dissipate naturally like chlorine alone does. If our plants and fish can't live in it... why would we want that anywhere near us?
cheeseomlit 5y ago
So the article seems to imply that fluoride is effective when applied topically and need not be ingested. So isn't fluoride toothpaste enough? Does it really need to be added to the water supply? How many studies have been done on the effects of bathing, cooking, watering plants, ingestion by pets, etc. with fluoridated water? One thing the article doesn't mention is where the fluoride is sourced from. Is it true that the fluoride that goes into the water supply is a waste product from fertilizer production? If this "waste" wasn't being put into the water how much would it cost fertilizer manufacturers to dispose of it? Is there some perverse incentive here? https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/engineering/engineering-shortages.htm https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/engineering/engineering-sho... >The three fluoride additives used for water fluoridation are derived principally from phosphate fertilizer production.
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  Most people don't leave toothpaste in contact with their teeth for long enough. My dentist recommends not rinsing after brushing, and just leaving the toothpaste in there. (Fun aside: This is also the procedure on the ISS to avoid having to spit in zero gravity.)
  - cecilpl2 5y ago
    > My dentist recommends not rinsing after brushing, and just leaving the toothpaste in there Is that not common practice? Just spit and you're done?
    - cheeseomlit 5y ago
      Many people rinse with water afterwards. If I don't rinse I get a wicked stomach-ache almost immediately after swallowing some toothpaste residue, so I rinse
      - tzs 5y ago
        How about rinsing with a fluoride rinse rather than water?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
veemjeem 5y ago
Once we figure out how to repair the tooth enamel properly, there will be no need for fluoride in dental care. We're still relying on epoxies & other glues.
- welder 5y ago
  Trials begin on lozenge that rebuilds tooth enamel https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27328663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27328663
ben7799 5y ago
I don't see in the article how they control for the IQ drop they think occurs (up to 5 points) being the same as the error margin for IQ tests (+/- 5 points). How does that work.. ? It's not like IQ tests are considered that reliable or unbiased. Also looking for studies.. they're observing the IQ drops in children who were exposed to excessive flouride beyond what's supposed to be in water. US levels all fall into the "low exposure" range in these studies.
mmastrac 5y ago
Hey, my hometown was mentioned. Calgary has been on and off again with Fluoride for decades and the evidence definitely shows an increase in caries when we don't add it.
AamosSinervo 5y ago
Maybe we should just stop putting gross amounts of sugar in everything. People have no problems getting rid of beef or meats. We should be able to get rid of some of our worst industries. Environmental case for this stuff is bad because of insane amount of chemicals necessary to grow unnattural (i.e. GMO) products. Those chemicals then run off and poison the environment. Then we need to add more chemicals, (i.e. flouride) to deal with consumption. Economically sugar/corn-syrup receive an enormous amount of subsidies. From a human rights perspective sugar farming is terrible (google Fanjuls to learn more). Obesity was the greatest risk factor besides age for COVID-19, so if as a society we can start mandating the jab, we can mandate some people don't get their "treats".
- efirman 5y ago
  Tooth decay and the disease that comes with it is a multi-factorial disease - its not enough to simply eliminate "sugar" from the diet. So, although I agree 100% that we need put systemic interventions to make those that promote a sugary diet accountable for the externalities they create, like hospitalizations, lower quality and length of life, lower incomes and educational attainment etc., We still need to focus on preventing cavities. Cavities are caused by all carbohydrates, including crackers, bread, etc. that have time on teeth allowing the bacteria that cause cavities to digest them and excrete acid on the tooth. Eliminate enough risk factors and you will prevent the disease - in fact cavities are 100% preventable - with proper hygiene, enough fluoride, healthy diet and early prevention of the bacteria that spreads the disease from childcare provider to baby.
Booktrope 5y ago
One alternative to fluorine that has been shown clinically to be equally or more effective is nanohydroxyapatite, which was developed by NASA some time ago to treat astronauts for loss of tooth enamel and bone density. (Some background info here https://www.oralscience.com/en/ingredients/mhap/ https://www.oralscience.com/en/ingredients/mhap/ The rights were sold to Japan where a leading toothpaste has for decades used nanohydroxyapatite rather than fluoride. The exclusive rights of the Japanese company have expired, so nanohydroxyapatite toothpaste is not also made in Canada and the US. It's more expensive than fluoride toothpaste but if you'd like to avoid these questions, might be worth it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

37 points by Wildgoose 5y ago

Fluoride works both topically and systemically to reduce tooth decay and is delivered through water, salt, milk, toothpaste, varnish, rinse depending on age, country of origin, income etc. For children ages 0-8 it is incorporated into the enamel of the teeth growing under the gums. After that, the mechanism is largely "topical" - however, that includes fluoride ions incorporated into the saliva and plaque in the process of ingesting it. Sipping water throughout the day bathes the teeth in fluoride each time and allows there to be a very small but impactful amount of fluoride in the mouth environment. This assists in the remineralizations of teeth enamel after acid attacks. The "topical vs. systemic" debate is a bit of a red herring. Its asking how does it work, not if it works. The evidence is clear that fluoridation does work to prevent tooth decay.https://fluorideexposed.org/fluoridescience/fluoride-mechanism-of-action https://fluorideexposed.org/fluoridescience/fluoride-mechani... additionally, a recent economic review of fluoridation found that the benefits in terms of reduced cavity rates and related dental costs outweigh the cost of implementing the strategy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6171335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6171335/

bondarchuk 5y ago

>Many dentists, having seen what life was like before fluoridation, have no interest in returning to the pre-fluoridation era of widespread cavities, abscesses, dentures and people in pain. Is that really true? I live in a country without drinking water medication (thank god) and it's not such a horror story as this article makes it sound. I know that dental health was worse in the past and has improved since, but it doesn't seem to be due to water fluoridation but rather other advances in dentistry and personal dental care.

DantesKite 5y ago
Right? We even have electric toothbrushes now which are way better than manual toothbrushes. Maybe if it was the 18th century and we somehow had access to fluoride it would be justified.
- ssully 5y ago
  Electric toothbrushes have become more affordable, but they are still pretty expensive, especially for people who are low income.
  - gnabgib 5y ago
    I don't think this is fair? Perhaps you haven't seen the $4 electric brushes.. perhaps they're not as good as the $80+ devices, but it's still an improvement over manual brushing. I've even seen them used in "buy N grocery products get a free electric toothbrush" promotions (I want to say it was a cereal company)
browningstreet 5y ago
I asked my pediatric dentist (our city was flirting with de-flouridating), and he produced a number of studies where cities with unfluoridated water had significantly higher rates of those tooth issues mentioned. It also impacts lower income communities more, possibly because the supplies of and access to dental care aren't what middle class and higher communities are accustomed to.
- nyscof 5y ago
  Many studies show ceasing fluoridation doesn't increase tooth decay https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nyscof-report-fluoride-dentists-magic-bullet-is-shooting-blanks-137713193.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nyscof-report-fluor...
  - efirman 5y ago
    many studies who the impact of not providing community water fluoridation: https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12903-018-0684-2 https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12... https://ucalgary.ca/news/study-shows-tooth-decay-worsened-calgary-children-after-fluoride-removal https://ucalgary.ca/news/study-shows-tooth-decay-worsened-ca... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925000/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925000/
    - nyscof 5y ago
      In Chile where water and milk is fluoridated, "both public measures have no direct or remarkable effect on dental health" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28453591/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28453591/
      - efirman 5y ago
        Thanks for sharing that article. In reading it I noticed a few things: 1) the primary author is a well published structural engineer. The article was billed as review of the medical literature, so this is an odd match in regards to expertise and content. Their first co-author does have MD, MPH credentials, but they were fairly green having published only one other article. The journal itself seems legit and has been around for 100+ years. In looking at the content 1) The methodology was essentially one paragraph and in execution it appears they cherry picked the literature and did not clearly indicate concentration of fluoride as they discussed certain postulated effects. 2) Often they reached conclusions based on single studies that do not seem to reflect the current body of evidence. For example, the reference to a Utah study on bone fracture in the elderly population. Many other studies have found opposite results and have been published prior to the publication of this study. 3) Their graphs that show a lack of association of water and salt fluoridation are used as evidence to make the declaration that there is no effect without discussion of causation for that difference. In essence, this piece seems like a regurgitation of soundbites from US advocates opposed to fluoridation. Chile continues its fluoridation program (70% of its population) and milk fluoridation for rural areas https://www.borrowfoundation.org/chile https://www.borrowfoundation.org/chile. The question over how to address cavities rates at the population level in rural areas where water fluoridation is not practical is a good one. And in looking at the evidence on milk fluoridation programs as I considered this article, there is room for further consideration and study there. However; this particular study is not enough to base such a policy discussion/ decision. The US does not currently offer or consider milk fluoridation in rural areas.
Spooky23 5y ago
Many people in the US don’t have access to dental care. Dentists managed to stay at arms length from insurance in general and many employers don’t offer it. For poor people, access is difficult. Dentistry is optional in Medicaid and many states opt out. My state Medicaid funds dental, but in my county (pop 350k), there are 4 dentists that accept Medicaid dental.
jws 5y ago
When added, fluoride is generally adjusted to 0.5-1.5ppm, a bit less than ocean water. Depending where you live, your water supply probably has plenty of fluoride. (Perhaps you can consider it "pre-medicated"). Natural water sources vary widely. Above 2ppm it starts to become a problem. In Africa and China 60% of the population have these levels or higher in their drinking water. Some of the initial studies in the early 1900s which identified fluoride as a factor in dental health were of children in Colorado with discolored, but very strong, teeth. Their water sources were up to 13ppm fluoride.

DantesKite 5y ago

I mean fluoride is one of the most interactive elements on the periodic table. It’s pretty clear it interacts with the body in pathogenic ways. That’s part of the reason why it bonds to the enamel of the teeth so well. I don’t think we need to supplement tapwater with fluoride now that toothbrushes and toothpaste are so widely available. You can’t control the dosage since people can drink as much tapwater as they want and still do not know how much they actually are receiving. That being said I highly recommend everybody get a reverse osmosis water filter. Add in some electrolytes and you’re good to go. Edit: Never mind, I was wrong. Fluoride isn't an element. It's somewhat reactive, but not nearly as much as Fluorine.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
latchkey 5y ago
I just bought an RO system of Amazon and it is great. There is a relatively newer design that doesn't require the external pressurization tank and uses a single easily-replaceable filter. The faucet even has a realtime TDS measurement (inlet water is over 400 and the filter brings it down to about 17-18). I put a higher flow filter (doesn't lower the TDS) in front of the RO system so that my regular faucet water is filtered and it extends the life of the RO filter. Takes like 30 minutes to get everything installed. Totally worth it!
- yumraj 5y ago
  Could you share which one?
  - latchkey 5y ago
    10UAW-UF and WD-D6-B
- DantesKite 5y ago
  I'm really fond of the Brondell H2O+ Circle RO filter. It's the best system I've ever used and the filters are so easy to replace it boggles my mind why every other filter isn't like it. It comes with a reverse flush system that makes the RO filter last for years. Takes our water from 250ppm to 12ppm. Used to be around 850ppm but luckily, the city improved its water filtration practices.

UI_at_80x24 5y ago

My town (~500,000) stopped putting fluoride in the drinking water in Jan 2013. According to the Oral Health 2018 [0] report released by the health unit, the percentage of children with tooth decay or requiring urgent care has increased by 51 per cent in 2016-17 compared to 2011-12. [0] https://www.wechu.org/reports/oral-health-2018-report https://www.wechu.org/reports/oral-health-2018-report

DantesKite 5y ago
I wonder how they know whether it’s specifically from a lack of fluoride or because of diet.
- Permit 5y ago
  What suggests to you that between 2011 and 2016 there was a large shift in children's diets?
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    I’m not the person you replied to but the Affordable Care Act implemented a requirement that health insurance plans offer optional pediatric dental coverage for anyone under 18 and IIRC it requires companies offering dental plans to employees to provide options for family coverage and not just individual plans. I recently posted a similar comment in a thread about drug addiction but perhaps it’s not an increase in cavities so much as it’s an increase in access to affordable pediatric dental care.
- SkittyDog 5y ago
  They don't know that... it's an anecdote, not an epidemiological study. But you also have no evidence that diets changed drastically for the whole city of 500k people around the same time... Probably because we don't even know what city this is actually referring to. Maybe all 500,000 people all stopped brushing their teeth... Maybe all the dentists left town... Maybe aliens are dosing the town from orbit with radiation weapons. It's not a useful counter-point for you to just assert some alternative causation... Of course there could be other causes, that's literally always true about any causative assertion.

latchkey 5y ago

Fluoride supplementation in water is less of a concern for me than chloramine. All my friends strongly defend the quality of Hetch Hetchy and I just don't get it. Fish can't even live in the water you're drinking. It affects plant growth too. We're showering in this stuff and vaporizing ammonia directly into our lungs.

SapporoChris 5y ago
Okay, are there any epidemiological studies indicating a problem with chloramine? https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/chloramines-drinking-water https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/chloramines-drinking-water Chloramines have been used by water utilities since the 1930s. More than one in five Americans uses drinking water treated with chloramines. I need more than hyperbole before I get concerned.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- latchkey 5y ago
  I don't think anything I said was hyperbole. Chloramine is ammonia and chlorine. You heat it up and vaporize it and it splits apart. That's basic chemistry. Ammonia is well-known to be an irritant. We are questioning the addition of fluoride, but not chloramine? But to respond to you, well, that's the thing... there are very few studies. It is one of those things where they just say "trust us" and there isn't much data to back it up in either direction. There are some definite hyperbole websites that suggest it causes (or increases) IBS, which you can google, they come up first in the search results. https://chloramine.org/ccacflier.htm https://chloramine.org/ccacflier.htm https://www.google.com/search?q=chloramine+ibs https://www.google.com/search?q=chloramine+ibs https://www.wired.com/2016/02/chloramines/ https://www.wired.com/2016/02/chloramines/ I was living in San Francisco when they switched. I had two fish tanks and all the fish died immediately upon a water change. I ended up having to add neutralizer to the water. I was also commercially growing some plants in my basement and it definitely had an effect on them. Immediately stunted growth. I did a lot more research and found that chloramine is hard to filter out as well. You need higher quality carbon or RO systems. It doesn't just dissipate naturally like chlorine alone does. If our plants and fish can't live in it... why would we want that anywhere near us?

cheeseomlit 5y ago

So the article seems to imply that fluoride is effective when applied topically and need not be ingested. So isn't fluoride toothpaste enough? Does it really need to be added to the water supply? How many studies have been done on the effects of bathing, cooking, watering plants, ingestion by pets, etc. with fluoridated water? One thing the article doesn't mention is where the fluoride is sourced from. Is it true that the fluoride that goes into the water supply is a waste product from fertilizer production? If this "waste" wasn't being put into the water how much would it cost fertilizer manufacturers to dispose of it? Is there some perverse incentive here? https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/engineering/engineering-shortages.htm https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/engineering/engineering-sho... >The three fluoride additives used for water fluoridation are derived principally from phosphate fertilizer production.

LeoPanthera 5y ago
Most people don't leave toothpaste in contact with their teeth for long enough. My dentist recommends not rinsing after brushing, and just leaving the toothpaste in there. (Fun aside: This is also the procedure on the ISS to avoid having to spit in zero gravity.)
- cecilpl2 5y ago
  > My dentist recommends not rinsing after brushing, and just leaving the toothpaste in there Is that not common practice? Just spit and you're done?
  - cheeseomlit 5y ago
    Many people rinse with water afterwards. If I don't rinse I get a wicked stomach-ache almost immediately after swallowing some toothpaste residue, so I rinse
    - tzs 5y ago
      How about rinsing with a fluoride rinse rather than water?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

veemjeem 5y ago

Once we figure out how to repair the tooth enamel properly, there will be no need for fluoride in dental care. We're still relying on epoxies & other glues.

welder 5y ago
Trials begin on lozenge that rebuilds tooth enamel https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27328663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27328663

ben7799 5y ago

I don't see in the article how they control for the IQ drop they think occurs (up to 5 points) being the same as the error margin for IQ tests (+/- 5 points). How does that work.. ? It's not like IQ tests are considered that reliable or unbiased. Also looking for studies.. they're observing the IQ drops in children who were exposed to excessive flouride beyond what's supposed to be in water. US levels all fall into the "low exposure" range in these studies.

mmastrac 5y ago

Hey, my hometown was mentioned. Calgary has been on and off again with Fluoride for decades and the evidence definitely shows an increase in caries when we don't add it.

AamosSinervo 5y ago

Maybe we should just stop putting gross amounts of sugar in everything. People have no problems getting rid of beef or meats. We should be able to get rid of some of our worst industries. Environmental case for this stuff is bad because of insane amount of chemicals necessary to grow unnattural (i.e. GMO) products. Those chemicals then run off and poison the environment. Then we need to add more chemicals, (i.e. flouride) to deal with consumption. Economically sugar/corn-syrup receive an enormous amount of subsidies. From a human rights perspective sugar farming is terrible (google Fanjuls to learn more). Obesity was the greatest risk factor besides age for COVID-19, so if as a society we can start mandating the jab, we can mandate some people don't get their "treats".

efirman 5y ago
Tooth decay and the disease that comes with it is a multi-factorial disease - its not enough to simply eliminate "sugar" from the diet. So, although I agree 100% that we need put systemic interventions to make those that promote a sugary diet accountable for the externalities they create, like hospitalizations, lower quality and length of life, lower incomes and educational attainment etc., We still need to focus on preventing cavities. Cavities are caused by all carbohydrates, including crackers, bread, etc. that have time on teeth allowing the bacteria that cause cavities to digest them and excrete acid on the tooth. Eliminate enough risk factors and you will prevent the disease - in fact cavities are 100% preventable - with proper hygiene, enough fluoride, healthy diet and early prevention of the bacteria that spreads the disease from childcare provider to baby.

Booktrope 5y ago

One alternative to fluorine that has been shown clinically to be equally or more effective is nanohydroxyapatite, which was developed by NASA some time ago to treat astronauts for loss of tooth enamel and bone density. (Some background info here https://www.oralscience.com/en/ingredients/mhap/ https://www.oralscience.com/en/ingredients/mhap/ The rights were sold to Japan where a leading toothpaste has for decades used nanohydroxyapatite rather than fluoride. The exclusive rights of the Japanese company have expired, so nanohydroxyapatite toothpaste is not also made in Canada and the US. It's more expensive than fluoride toothpaste but if you'd like to avoid these questions, might be worth it.

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