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> Other libertarians simply believe that markets solve problems better than governments do (hard not to argue with that right now) Considering that the supply

> Other libertarians simply believe that markets solve problems better than governments do (hard not to argue with that right now) Considering that the supply chain problems can be laid squarely at the feet of "markets" assuming that everything would operate in a vacuum like an econ textbook and imploding once external pressure interrupted things, it's very hard to argue with that. > I'd also argue that really libertarians haven't had much of a way of influence in American politics and this is strictly the failure of the USG (Republicans and Democrats) to take action. The principal problem with this argument is the "no true Scotsman" attitude of "real libertarians" compared to other "real libertarians". I don't know what "libertarians" are to you, but the obvious answer is that if they haven't had much of an influence in American politics, it's because their policies and stances aren't popular. Most of the Western world experienced unregulated market dynamics in the robber baron era, and arguably again in the last 10-15 years. We've been there and tried it.

ericmay 5y ago
> Considering that the supply chain problems can be laid squarely at the feet of "markets" assuming that everything would operate in a vacuum like an econ textbook and imploding once external pressure interrupted things, it's very hard to argue with that. I mean yea... we had a gigantic pandemic and people were getting sick. We can also attribute the fact that you have goods and services and a vaccine in your arm to the same markets. Certainly the government helped in some ways but it also completely botched the response to the pandemic. > The principal problem with this argument is the "no true Scotsman" attitude of "real libertarians" compared to other "real libertarians". No this isn't that. If you're going to bucket list a bunch of people and say "blah blah blah libertarians think this" then I'm going to point out why that's incorrect and not representative of general libertarian philosophy which is a lot more than what is being discussed in the OP. It's not a fair characterization, and clearing up misconceptions is a fair thing to do. "Libertarians think X" "No they actually think X,Y,and Z". > I don't know what "libertarians" are to you, but the obvious answer is that if they haven't had much of an influence in American politics, it's because their policies and stances aren't popular. Great so then why are we blaming them again? If you want to say "they did have an influence" then fine, I'll say that Communists and such have had a big influence too. > Most of the Western world experienced unregulated market dynamics in the robber baron era, and arguably again in the last 10-15 years. We've been there and tried it. I'm not sure what your point is here. I guess in response I could say we experienced uncontrolled Communism during the 1940s-1980s and now again with the CCP. We've been there and tried that.
- evol262 5y ago
  > I mean yea... we had a gigantic pandemic and people were getting sick. We can also attribute the fact that you have goods and services and a vaccine in your arm to the same markets. Certainly the government helped in some ways but it also completely botched the response to the pandemic. I'm not arguing that the government response to the pandemic was good, though. I'm arguing that the market response to it is and was terrible. Sure, some things remained functional, but having a run on cleaning supplies, hygiene products, electronic components, and others because the markets could not cope with elastic demand isn't a great look. I understand how we got into this situation (compared to having stocks of unsold product which is eventually written off sitting in a warehouse somewhere). That doesn't excuse it, though. There is little reason other than "satisfy shareholders" that industrial giants should not have been able to keep up on demand for _bleach_. > No this isn't that. If you're going to bucket list a bunch of people and say "blah blah blah libertarians think this" then I'm going to point out why that's incorrect and not representative of general libertarian philosophy which is a lot more than what is being discussed in the OP. It's not a fair characterization, and clearing up misconceptions is a fair thing to do. I am not bucket listing a bunch of people and saying "libertarians think this". I am saying that libertarians and what even qualifies as "general libertarian philosophy" is so incredibly fractured and scattershot that even speaking of "libertarians" as some sort of group is an exercise in futility, and not only because people like yourself will leap to the defense of "libertarians" without any clarification at all. > Great so then why are we blaming them again? Because it there's ANY unifying theme between "libertarians" and "libertarians", it's "markets handle problems better than governments", which they demonstrably do not. > If you want to say "they did have an influence" then fine, I'll say that Communists and such have had a big influence too. And who's arguing for communism here? > I'm not sure what your point is here. I guess in response I could say we experienced uncontrolled Communism during the 1940s-1980s and now again with the CCP. We've been there and tried that. Sure, great, amazing. That's a position I'm happy to live with. Quibbling about differences in communist theory isn't relevant, since it actually seems to be popular with Gen Z and Millenials, and maybe they'll get a chance to actually try it through advocacy and electing people who match their beliefs instead of living in some no-man's land of "we don't wanna be part of your system, man, but if we were we'd do it so much better". That's how democracy works.

ericmay 5y ago

> Considering that the supply chain problems can be laid squarely at the feet of "markets" assuming that everything would operate in a vacuum like an econ textbook and imploding once external pressure interrupted things, it's very hard to argue with that. I mean yea... we had a gigantic pandemic and people were getting sick. We can also attribute the fact that you have goods and services and a vaccine in your arm to the same markets. Certainly the government helped in some ways but it also completely botched the response to the pandemic. > The principal problem with this argument is the "no true Scotsman" attitude of "real libertarians" compared to other "real libertarians". No this isn't that. If you're going to bucket list a bunch of people and say "blah blah blah libertarians think this" then I'm going to point out why that's incorrect and not representative of general libertarian philosophy which is a lot more than what is being discussed in the OP. It's not a fair characterization, and clearing up misconceptions is a fair thing to do. "Libertarians think X" "No they actually think X,Y,and Z". > I don't know what "libertarians" are to you, but the obvious answer is that if they haven't had much of an influence in American politics, it's because their policies and stances aren't popular. Great so then why are we blaming them again? If you want to say "they did have an influence" then fine, I'll say that Communists and such have had a big influence too. > Most of the Western world experienced unregulated market dynamics in the robber baron era, and arguably again in the last 10-15 years. We've been there and tried it. I'm not sure what your point is here. I guess in response I could say we experienced uncontrolled Communism during the 1940s-1980s and now again with the CCP. We've been there and tried that.

evol262 5y ago
> I mean yea... we had a gigantic pandemic and people were getting sick. We can also attribute the fact that you have goods and services and a vaccine in your arm to the same markets. Certainly the government helped in some ways but it also completely botched the response to the pandemic. I'm not arguing that the government response to the pandemic was good, though. I'm arguing that the market response to it is and was terrible. Sure, some things remained functional, but having a run on cleaning supplies, hygiene products, electronic components, and others because the markets could not cope with elastic demand isn't a great look. I understand how we got into this situation (compared to having stocks of unsold product which is eventually written off sitting in a warehouse somewhere). That doesn't excuse it, though. There is little reason other than "satisfy shareholders" that industrial giants should not have been able to keep up on demand for _bleach_. > No this isn't that. If you're going to bucket list a bunch of people and say "blah blah blah libertarians think this" then I'm going to point out why that's incorrect and not representative of general libertarian philosophy which is a lot more than what is being discussed in the OP. It's not a fair characterization, and clearing up misconceptions is a fair thing to do. I am not bucket listing a bunch of people and saying "libertarians think this". I am saying that libertarians and what even qualifies as "general libertarian philosophy" is so incredibly fractured and scattershot that even speaking of "libertarians" as some sort of group is an exercise in futility, and not only because people like yourself will leap to the defense of "libertarians" without any clarification at all. > Great so then why are we blaming them again? Because it there's ANY unifying theme between "libertarians" and "libertarians", it's "markets handle problems better than governments", which they demonstrably do not. > If you want to say "they did have an influence" then fine, I'll say that Communists and such have had a big influence too. And who's arguing for communism here? > I'm not sure what your point is here. I guess in response I could say we experienced uncontrolled Communism during the 1940s-1980s and now again with the CCP. We've been there and tried that. Sure, great, amazing. That's a position I'm happy to live with. Quibbling about differences in communist theory isn't relevant, since it actually seems to be popular with Gen Z and Millenials, and maybe they'll get a chance to actually try it through advocacy and electing people who match their beliefs instead of living in some no-man's land of "we don't wanna be part of your system, man, but if we were we'd do it so much better". That's how democracy works.