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Wow, what an Intel shill piece. Can we have Alder lake’s power per watt metrics? Can we see the size of the laptops it will be installed in? Will it be able

Wow, what an Intel shill piece. Can we have Alder lake’s power per watt metrics? Can we see the size of the laptops it will be installed in? Will it be able to reach the same performance while on battery, like the new MacBook Pros? C’mon, I understand Intel is in a push to counter the Intel-is-screwed narrative, but their comms department should try to do better than this old school benchmark “leaks” post, with cherry picked comparisons and such.

klelatti 5y ago
I actually think this sort of thing is counterproductive - makes me more sceptical of potentially more credible assessments.
- omegalulw 5y ago
  Not to mention power comparisons are not entirely fair considering the node disadvantage Intel has. I would be excited if Intel can show higher clicks and overall IPC with reasonable excess power attributable to node difference.
  - Sevaris 5y ago
    It's absolutely fair. Try to find an Intel CPU on the market without a node disadvantage. Doesn't exist. We can only (and it only makes sense to) compare what exists now, what consumers are able to buy right now. If Intel magically comes up with a CPU that runs on a similar node, then sure, but until then, the reality is that they're on the market at a node disadvantage. That's not something you can just wave away as "oh, well, Apple has a better node". All that matters is what devices you can buy and what their performance/power metrics are actually like.
    - klelatti 5y ago
      Agreed. The argument seems to be I’ll be happy with Intel if IPC etc is competitive as I want the raw power and don’t care about battery life etc. Which might just be true for a very small section of the laptop buying market but leads to a much less useful product for the very large majority.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    The point of fairness is not to give participation trophies to a company because the others had better tools. If a product is worse, then it is worse. Warm feelings because Intel does not have access to the best technology is not going to make any laptop run cooler. I can understand the “they’re an underdog, so they deserve some money even if their products are not the absolute best”, but casting Intel as the poor underdog being steamrolled by their competition because they cannot get the latest and greatest is strange, to say the least.
    - omegalulw 5y ago
      I should have clarified this earlier. Personally I'm interested in how competitive Intel will be in the future (their stock took a massive dive recently). Right now, it seems to me that Intel is behind both on the node and on the architecture vs M1 (and AMD). I expect them to eventually fix the node (or just buy from TSMC) but if they don't fix the latter that's a big deal. From the POV of buying a CPU/laptop today, absolutely, power comparison and performance both are essential.
      - klelatti 5y ago
        That’s a very fair perspective. I’m an Intel bear on their existing markets - mainly because even if they achieve parity with TSMC the lead is gone and others will take market share. I’m more positive on the Intel GPU business though given the potential huge demand for ML compute.
      - kergonath 5y ago
        You've got a point, but the discussions are most of the time not about the theoretical characteristics of an architecture on a process node that it will never use. It's people beating each other on the head about which mega-corp has CPUs a few percents faster than the other. From a historical point of view, a systematic shift to hotter, more power-hungry chips was never a good sign (see for example the various Pentium 4s and the successive incarnations of Bulldozer and Piledriver). I hope it's a stopgap and that they have a new Core 2 masterpiece being readied, but let's not kid ourselves: it does not look good. the Physics of heat transfer put a limit to the gains in performance you can achieve if you don't also increase efficiency. It's cold comfort to know that your CPU would be wonderful if cooled with liquid nitrogen when your desktop throttles under load.
uweihfuio 5y ago
No, but you can see that AMD beats Apple in Power-Performance: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-PRO-5850U-vs-Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz/4198vs4104 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-PRO-5850U-v... AMD 5850U 1253 scores vs Apple M1 1004 scores Waiting for apple fanboys telling me something like "but TDP is not a good measure"...
- gassit 5y ago
  Why are you comparing with the lowest spec M1 chip? I think this might be the comparison you were after? https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-PRO-5850U-vs-Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz-vs-Apple-M1-Max-10-Core-3200-MHz/4198vs4104vs4585 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-PRO-5850U-v...
  - uweihfuio 5y ago
    I compared 15W CPUs and you putted 30W CPU (M1 MAX) in the comparison... Nice try but such tricks will not work with me.
    - zimpenfish 5y ago
      To be strictly fair, the AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 5850U is a 10-25W TDP depending on manufacturer configuration, not nailed to 15W. Do cpubenchmark verify that it's running at a 15W TDP when coalescing the numbers?
      - uweihfuio 5y ago
        There is no guarantee for that, but usually 5850U is used in ultra-thin laptops and they don't have enough cooling for more than 15W... For example, CPU in Thinkpad X1 Extreme GEN 4 is limited 27 WATT (at least models without vapor chamber) and it's a laptop with quite a good cooling and larger size.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

klelatti 5y ago

I actually think this sort of thing is counterproductive - makes me more sceptical of potentially more credible assessments.

omegalulw 5y ago
Not to mention power comparisons are not entirely fair considering the node disadvantage Intel has. I would be excited if Intel can show higher clicks and overall IPC with reasonable excess power attributable to node difference.
- Sevaris 5y ago
  It's absolutely fair. Try to find an Intel CPU on the market without a node disadvantage. Doesn't exist. We can only (and it only makes sense to) compare what exists now, what consumers are able to buy right now. If Intel magically comes up with a CPU that runs on a similar node, then sure, but until then, the reality is that they're on the market at a node disadvantage. That's not something you can just wave away as "oh, well, Apple has a better node". All that matters is what devices you can buy and what their performance/power metrics are actually like.
  - klelatti 5y ago
    Agreed. The argument seems to be I’ll be happy with Intel if IPC etc is competitive as I want the raw power and don’t care about battery life etc. Which might just be true for a very small section of the laptop buying market but leads to a much less useful product for the very large majority.
- kergonath 5y ago
  The point of fairness is not to give participation trophies to a company because the others had better tools. If a product is worse, then it is worse. Warm feelings because Intel does not have access to the best technology is not going to make any laptop run cooler. I can understand the “they’re an underdog, so they deserve some money even if their products are not the absolute best”, but casting Intel as the poor underdog being steamrolled by their competition because they cannot get the latest and greatest is strange, to say the least.
  - omegalulw 5y ago
    I should have clarified this earlier. Personally I'm interested in how competitive Intel will be in the future (their stock took a massive dive recently). Right now, it seems to me that Intel is behind both on the node and on the architecture vs M1 (and AMD). I expect them to eventually fix the node (or just buy from TSMC) but if they don't fix the latter that's a big deal. From the POV of buying a CPU/laptop today, absolutely, power comparison and performance both are essential.
    - klelatti 5y ago
      That’s a very fair perspective. I’m an Intel bear on their existing markets - mainly because even if they achieve parity with TSMC the lead is gone and others will take market share. I’m more positive on the Intel GPU business though given the potential huge demand for ML compute.
    - kergonath 5y ago
      You've got a point, but the discussions are most of the time not about the theoretical characteristics of an architecture on a process node that it will never use. It's people beating each other on the head about which mega-corp has CPUs a few percents faster than the other. From a historical point of view, a systematic shift to hotter, more power-hungry chips was never a good sign (see for example the various Pentium 4s and the successive incarnations of Bulldozer and Piledriver). I hope it's a stopgap and that they have a new Core 2 masterpiece being readied, but let's not kid ourselves: it does not look good. the Physics of heat transfer put a limit to the gains in performance you can achieve if you don't also increase efficiency. It's cold comfort to know that your CPU would be wonderful if cooled with liquid nitrogen when your desktop throttles under load.

uweihfuio 5y ago

No, but you can see that AMD beats Apple in Power-Performance: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-PRO-5850U-vs-Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz/4198vs4104 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-PRO-5850U-v... AMD 5850U 1253 scores vs Apple M1 1004 scores Waiting for apple fanboys telling me something like "but TDP is not a good measure"...

gassit 5y ago
Why are you comparing with the lowest spec M1 chip? I think this might be the comparison you were after? https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-PRO-5850U-vs-Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz-vs-Apple-M1-Max-10-Core-3200-MHz/4198vs4104vs4585 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-PRO-5850U-v...
- uweihfuio 5y ago
  I compared 15W CPUs and you putted 30W CPU (M1 MAX) in the comparison... Nice try but such tricks will not work with me.
  - zimpenfish 5y ago
    To be strictly fair, the AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 5850U is a 10-25W TDP depending on manufacturer configuration, not nailed to 15W. Do cpubenchmark verify that it's running at a 15W TDP when coalescing the numbers?
    - uweihfuio 5y ago
      There is no guarantee for that, but usually 5850U is used in ultra-thin laptops and they don't have enough cooling for more than 15W... For example, CPU in Thinkpad X1 Extreme GEN 4 is limited 27 WATT (at least models without vapor chamber) and it's a laptop with quite a good cooling and larger size.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]