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That reminds me of the idea that brain as a predictive engine that constantly refine its internal model to match anticipated sensory outcome. In this case the i

That reminds me of the idea that brain as a predictive engine that constantly refine its internal model to match anticipated sensory outcome. In this case the inference is way more complex based on cognition that the placebo would help relieve pain. Based on this idea, however, the study does not identify the key pathway responsible for placebo effect, but only the result of it. If the brain anticipate relief of pain, the parts related to pain would activate. If it anticipates other effects, other parts of the brain would do.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
Super interesting comment and thoughts. Thanks for sharing - I never thought of it this way.
rtkaratekid 5y ago
If the brain anticipates relief from pain, wouldn’t the parts of the brain relates to pain be depressed rather than activated?
- refurb 5y ago
  Think further downstream, beyond the pain sensing part of the brain. So opioids are know to be great pain relievers. What is interesting is for certain types of pain, they don’t actually make the pain go away, they just change the perception and emotional response to it. Patients who receive opioids say “i can still feel the pain, but it doesn’t bother me now”. So to your question, the impact of opioids isn’t necessarily on the pain sensing centers but rather further downstream in terms of how those sensations are perceived. If you take a placebo and expect it to relieve pain, your brain adjusts to assume that outcome. It’s not that different than asking you if you’re tired right now. If you have to go to work you might say “yes”, but if you’re about to jump on a plane for a vacation you might say “no”.
nefitty 5y ago
My likely oversimplified understanding of dopamine is that the brain is constantly simulating the outcomes of possible actions. Simulated actions that result in "success" states generate dopamine, with different pathways generating varying levels at any one time. The pathway that generates the greatest net dopamine is pursued, the realized outcome of which then reinforces/dampens the path's simulation function by generating other neurotransmitters.
- richardatlarge 5y ago
  an example of the complexity of dopamine: a study allowed animals to self-administer cocaine. Other animals were administered the drug in the brain on the same schedule but without 'choosing' to take it. The findings showed that the areas of the brain affected differed depending on these two conditions. This is a study with rats, and yet the effects of a seemingly small environmental/psychological difference changed everything Another study on electrical brain stimulation showed that while animals would self-administer it, when it was automatically administered, the same animals would respond always to turn it off
  - nefitty 5y ago
    Wow, that is weird! What's your favorite book or resource to learn more about the brain? I've looked at the deep end of neuroscience Wiki and it is super overwhelming.
    - richardatlarge 5y ago
      On the brain itself: Edelman Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind On brain and drugs: https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/mg19325902-500-the-cult-of-pharmacology-by-richard-degrandpre/amp/ https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/...
      - nefitty 5y ago
        Thanks!!
gfody 5y ago
the predictive processing model, the best introduction to it imo is this review of "surfing uncertainty" - https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-uncertainty/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-un... > 7. The Placebo Effect. We hear a lot about “pain gating” in the spine, but the PP model does a good job of explaining what this is: adjusting pain based on top-down priors. If you believe you should be in pain, the brain will use that as a filter to interpret ambiguous low-precision pain signals. If you believe you shouldn’t, the brain will be more likely to assume ambiguous low-precision pain signals are a mistake. So if you take a pill that doctors assure you will cure your pain, then your lower layers are more likely to interpret pain signals as noise, “cook the books” and prevent them from reaching your consciousness. > Psychosomatic pain is the opposite of this; see Section 7.10 of the book for a fuller explanation.
MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
> brain as a predictive engine that constantly refine its internal model And a pretty effective one at that. Stereotype accuracy is one of the most solid and replicable findings in psychology. There are very strong correlations between what people think is true about statistical discrepancies between groups and what the truth actually is. The relationships consistently replicate and are much stronger than most effects found in social psychology [0]. We must thus understand wokeism as a war on pattern recognition. [0] https://cspicenter.org/reports/the-accuracy-of-stereotypes-data-and-implications/ https://cspicenter.org/reports/the-accuracy-of-stereotypes-d...
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Prejudice is a serious problem - the most serious one. The horrors it has inflicted on people are a long catalog, maybe the worst one. What do you hope to achieve by supporting it? The underlying issue is about reactionary politics, which exists only to stop progress. I think if we look deep down, we know reactionary politics will object no matter what the issue or facts - therefore the objection has nothing to do with the question at hand or its outcomes. You can see it in climate change denial, as a simpler example. That is its purpose and reason - to object. Along the way, lots and lots of people will die and suffer. Blood, lost generations, are on our hands. And for what?
  - LocalH 5y ago
    I don't see that as "supporting" it, with the exception of maybe the one line about wokeism. However, I do think it would serve well to better understand the mechanisms behind stereotyping.
  - coolso 5y ago
    Prejudice is also why we’re all here today, it has very well documented implications when it comes to survival among other things. Ignoring and censoring the truth because it’s mean can be far more dangerous with far more disastrous effects. Censorship of thoughts is not the way to go - and the pushback, if it stays that way, is going to be worse than we can probably imagine right now.
archibaldJ 5y ago
Could perhaps be about reducing the cost structure of forming connections in the pathway while increasing in some, and thus more likely that some connections are formed/deformed (ie without the actual presence of agonists/antagonists)?
grp000 5y ago
The simple explanation is that humans are 40K orks.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago

Super interesting comment and thoughts. Thanks for sharing - I never thought of it this way.

rtkaratekid 5y ago

If the brain anticipates relief from pain, wouldn’t the parts of the brain relates to pain be depressed rather than activated?

refurb 5y ago
Think further downstream, beyond the pain sensing part of the brain. So opioids are know to be great pain relievers. What is interesting is for certain types of pain, they don’t actually make the pain go away, they just change the perception and emotional response to it. Patients who receive opioids say “i can still feel the pain, but it doesn’t bother me now”. So to your question, the impact of opioids isn’t necessarily on the pain sensing centers but rather further downstream in terms of how those sensations are perceived. If you take a placebo and expect it to relieve pain, your brain adjusts to assume that outcome. It’s not that different than asking you if you’re tired right now. If you have to go to work you might say “yes”, but if you’re about to jump on a plane for a vacation you might say “no”.

nefitty 5y ago

My likely oversimplified understanding of dopamine is that the brain is constantly simulating the outcomes of possible actions. Simulated actions that result in "success" states generate dopamine, with different pathways generating varying levels at any one time. The pathway that generates the greatest net dopamine is pursued, the realized outcome of which then reinforces/dampens the path's simulation function by generating other neurotransmitters.

richardatlarge 5y ago
an example of the complexity of dopamine: a study allowed animals to self-administer cocaine. Other animals were administered the drug in the brain on the same schedule but without 'choosing' to take it. The findings showed that the areas of the brain affected differed depending on these two conditions. This is a study with rats, and yet the effects of a seemingly small environmental/psychological difference changed everything Another study on electrical brain stimulation showed that while animals would self-administer it, when it was automatically administered, the same animals would respond always to turn it off
- nefitty 5y ago
  Wow, that is weird! What's your favorite book or resource to learn more about the brain? I've looked at the deep end of neuroscience Wiki and it is super overwhelming.
  - richardatlarge 5y ago
    On the brain itself: Edelman Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind On brain and drugs: https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/mg19325902-500-the-cult-of-pharmacology-by-richard-degrandpre/amp/ https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/...
    - nefitty 5y ago
      Thanks!!

gfody 5y ago

the predictive processing model, the best introduction to it imo is this review of "surfing uncertainty" - https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-uncertainty/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-un... > 7. The Placebo Effect. We hear a lot about “pain gating” in the spine, but the PP model does a good job of explaining what this is: adjusting pain based on top-down priors. If you believe you should be in pain, the brain will use that as a filter to interpret ambiguous low-precision pain signals. If you believe you shouldn’t, the brain will be more likely to assume ambiguous low-precision pain signals are a mistake. So if you take a pill that doctors assure you will cure your pain, then your lower layers are more likely to interpret pain signals as noise, “cook the books” and prevent them from reaching your consciousness. > Psychosomatic pain is the opposite of this; see Section 7.10 of the book for a fuller explanation.

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago

> brain as a predictive engine that constantly refine its internal model And a pretty effective one at that. Stereotype accuracy is one of the most solid and replicable findings in psychology. There are very strong correlations between what people think is true about statistical discrepancies between groups and what the truth actually is. The relationships consistently replicate and are much stronger than most effects found in social psychology [0]. We must thus understand wokeism as a war on pattern recognition. [0] https://cspicenter.org/reports/the-accuracy-of-stereotypes-data-and-implications/ https://cspicenter.org/reports/the-accuracy-of-stereotypes-d...

wolverine876 5y ago
Prejudice is a serious problem - the most serious one. The horrors it has inflicted on people are a long catalog, maybe the worst one. What do you hope to achieve by supporting it? The underlying issue is about reactionary politics, which exists only to stop progress. I think if we look deep down, we know reactionary politics will object no matter what the issue or facts - therefore the objection has nothing to do with the question at hand or its outcomes. You can see it in climate change denial, as a simpler example. That is its purpose and reason - to object. Along the way, lots and lots of people will die and suffer. Blood, lost generations, are on our hands. And for what?
- LocalH 5y ago
  I don't see that as "supporting" it, with the exception of maybe the one line about wokeism. However, I do think it would serve well to better understand the mechanisms behind stereotyping.
- coolso 5y ago
  Prejudice is also why we’re all here today, it has very well documented implications when it comes to survival among other things. Ignoring and censoring the truth because it’s mean can be far more dangerous with far more disastrous effects. Censorship of thoughts is not the way to go - and the pushback, if it stays that way, is going to be worse than we can probably imagine right now.

archibaldJ 5y ago

Could perhaps be about reducing the cost structure of forming connections in the pathway while increasing in some, and thus more likely that some connections are formed/deformed (ie without the actual presence of agonists/antagonists)?

grp000 5y ago

The simple explanation is that humans are 40K orks.