4 ms·

> The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, are you

by sumedh 5y ago

> The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police or killed by them now? > At what point does this argument no longer hold up? When Group A is treated equally as Group B. > of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps.

logicalmonster 5y ago
> The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, Please point to one law or government policy in the US in CURRENT_YEAR that systemically discriminates against a specific group, so people are aware of it, so we can fix it. > are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police Examples of discrimination and racism exist, of course, and will probably always exist as long as all humans are not complete genetic clones of each other. But racism is different than systemic racism. > or killed by them now? There's many examples of good and bad policing applied against all racial groups (the torture and execution of Daniel Shaver might be the worst example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8), but I'd argue that the perception of how policing works doesn't meet reality. A small example: https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/cases-of-police-brutality-against-black-people-are-overestimated/ https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/cases-of-police-brutality-agai... > Participants across the political spectrum in the nationally representative survey were asked how many unarmed black men were killed by police in 2019. The results were revealing. Overall, nearly half of surveyed liberals (44 percent) estimated roughly between 1,000 and 10,000 unarmed black men were killed whereas 20 percent of conservatives estimated the same. > Most notably, the majority of respondents in each political category believed that police killed unarmed black men at an exponentially higher rate than in reality. Over 80 percent of liberals guessed at least 100 unarmed black men were killed compared to 66 percent of moderates and 54 percent of conservatives. But, according to a close database compiled by Mapping Police Violence, the actual number of black men killed by the police in 2019 is 27. > The second question the survey asked was: “In 2019, what percentage of people killed by police were Black?” While the survey states that the actual percentage is around 25 percent, the average survey respondent guessed 50 percent (58 percent for liberals and 41 percent for conservatives). The disconnect between perception and reality couldn’t be starker. Any police murder is horrific, but the perception of the scale of the issue is IMO radically wrong. > When Group A is treated equally as Group B. If your criteria for being treated equality is equality of outcome and not equality of opportunity, then there's probably never going to be any success in this regard unless we force ourselves to live a Harrison Bergeron existence. > Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. It doesn't matter what color somebody is, every group walked through a mile of shit in their history to get to the US and prosper: including being victims of slavery, genocides, facing discrimination, and other big issues. Some groups had it worse than others, of course, and we all recognize that. Yet any group can prosper today, as shown by Asians doing the best out of any group in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... > Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps. In the past, the default answer to many questions was "god did it". In the present, the default answer to many questions is "racism did it". When you look for it, you'll notice it.
- another-dave 5y ago
  "Please point to one law or government policy in the US in CURRENT_YEAR that systemically discriminates against a specific group, so people are aware of it, so we can fix it." Sentencing disparity between powdered cocaine (whose usage skews towards white people) and crack cocaine.
  - logicalmonster 5y ago
    Sorry, I missed seeing this comment and wanted to respond because you at least tried to offer something concrete. For the sake of clarification, is there any "apples-to-apples" statistical comparison available to prove some kind of bias? By that, I mean not comparing all powdered cocaine users and all crack cocaine users (comparing groups like that is bad statistics IMO), but comparing sentences among all white/black powdered cocaine users, or comparing sentences among all white/black crack cocaine users? For instance, would a black businessman working for Goldman Sachs caught with 1 kilo of powdered cocaine get the same kind of sentence as a white equivalent? Or would a white crack cocaine user get the same kind of sentence as the black equivalent? To me, that's the question that's a bit more revealing and interesting. PS: For the record, personally I don't believe that there ought to be any sentencing disparities. The War on Drugs is an abject failure for anything other than growing a destructive government intrusion into peoples' lives and the criminal penalty for possession of any drug should be precisely 0.
- sumedh 5y ago
  > But racism is different than systemic racism. Not giving loans and putting them in jail and killing one group of people is systemic racism. Not sure why I have to keep repeating it, its as if you dont want to accept that you are wrong so you keep on deflecting it. > Please point to one law or government policy in the US in CURRENT_YEAR that systemically discriminates against a specific group, so people are aware of it, so we can fix it. LOL it does not work like that. These are unwritten rules and polices, you dont notice it if you are white. > Some groups had it worse than others, of course, and we all recognize that. looks like you are not recognising it if you are comparing slavery and lynching to "other" problems face by everyone else.

by sumedh 5y ago

logicalmonster 5y ago

> The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, Please point to one law or government policy in the US in CURRENT_YEAR that systemically discriminates against a specific group, so people are aware of it, so we can fix it. > are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police Examples of discrimination and racism exist, of course, and will probably always exist as long as all humans are not complete genetic clones of each other. But racism is different than systemic racism. > or killed by them now? There's many examples of good and bad policing applied against all racial groups (the torture and execution of Daniel Shaver might be the worst example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8), but I'd argue that the perception of how policing works doesn't meet reality. A small example: https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/cases-of-police-brutality-against-black-people-are-overestimated/ https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/cases-of-police-brutality-agai... > Participants across the political spectrum in the nationally representative survey were asked how many unarmed black men were killed by police in 2019. The results were revealing. Overall, nearly half of surveyed liberals (44 percent) estimated roughly between 1,000 and 10,000 unarmed black men were killed whereas 20 percent of conservatives estimated the same. > Most notably, the majority of respondents in each political category believed that police killed unarmed black men at an exponentially higher rate than in reality. Over 80 percent of liberals guessed at least 100 unarmed black men were killed compared to 66 percent of moderates and 54 percent of conservatives. But, according to a close database compiled by Mapping Police Violence, the actual number of black men killed by the police in 2019 is 27. > The second question the survey asked was: “In 2019, what percentage of people killed by police were Black?” While the survey states that the actual percentage is around 25 percent, the average survey respondent guessed 50 percent (58 percent for liberals and 41 percent for conservatives). The disconnect between perception and reality couldn’t be starker. Any police murder is horrific, but the perception of the scale of the issue is IMO radically wrong. > When Group A is treated equally as Group B. If your criteria for being treated equality is equality of outcome and not equality of opportunity, then there's probably never going to be any success in this regard unless we force ourselves to live a Harrison Bergeron existence. > Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. It doesn't matter what color somebody is, every group walked through a mile of shit in their history to get to the US and prosper: including being victims of slavery, genocides, facing discrimination, and other big issues. Some groups had it worse than others, of course, and we all recognize that. Yet any group can prosper today, as shown by Asians doing the best out of any group in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... > Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps. In the past, the default answer to many questions was "god did it". In the present, the default answer to many questions is "racism did it". When you look for it, you'll notice it.

another-dave 5y ago
"Please point to one law or government policy in the US in CURRENT_YEAR that systemically discriminates against a specific group, so people are aware of it, so we can fix it." Sentencing disparity between powdered cocaine (whose usage skews towards white people) and crack cocaine.
- logicalmonster 5y ago
  Sorry, I missed seeing this comment and wanted to respond because you at least tried to offer something concrete. For the sake of clarification, is there any "apples-to-apples" statistical comparison available to prove some kind of bias? By that, I mean not comparing all powdered cocaine users and all crack cocaine users (comparing groups like that is bad statistics IMO), but comparing sentences among all white/black powdered cocaine users, or comparing sentences among all white/black crack cocaine users? For instance, would a black businessman working for Goldman Sachs caught with 1 kilo of powdered cocaine get the same kind of sentence as a white equivalent? Or would a white crack cocaine user get the same kind of sentence as the black equivalent? To me, that's the question that's a bit more revealing and interesting. PS: For the record, personally I don't believe that there ought to be any sentencing disparities. The War on Drugs is an abject failure for anything other than growing a destructive government intrusion into peoples' lives and the criminal penalty for possession of any drug should be precisely 0.
sumedh 5y ago
> But racism is different than systemic racism. Not giving loans and putting them in jail and killing one group of people is systemic racism. Not sure why I have to keep repeating it, its as if you dont want to accept that you are wrong so you keep on deflecting it. > Please point to one law or government policy in the US in CURRENT_YEAR that systemically discriminates against a specific group, so people are aware of it, so we can fix it. LOL it does not work like that. These are unwritten rules and polices, you dont notice it if you are white. > Some groups had it worse than others, of course, and we all recognize that. looks like you are not recognising it if you are comparing slavery and lynching to "other" problems face by everyone else.