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> I'd like to see an example of systemic racism that's holding anybody behind in current year so we can work on it. Let say there is Group A who have worked f

by sumedh 5y ago

> I'd like to see an example of systemic racism that's holding anybody behind in current year so we can work on it. Let say there is Group A who have worked for free for Group B for generations. Group A also does not get home loans for generations Group A does not get business loans for generations. More members of Group A are also put in jail compared to Group B. Group B does not face those same issues, which group do you think will turn out better, which group will have more money and resources, will it be Group A or Group B? For points 2 and 3, do you think Group A and Group started at an equal level to make that comparison or do you think one of those groups was held behind due to the issues which I mentioned above?

logicalmonster 5y ago
The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, which was the question asked, and is the only thing we can fix unless a time machine is invented. As far as your general comment goes, I get your point and I agree that it's a reasonable argument for some time period as an explanation of inequality, but at some point I'd argue that it doesn't hold up and ceases to explain reality. If in 25 years or 50 years or even 100+ more years, if there's still highly unequal economic outcomes, is the only answer still going to be an unequal start? At what point does this argument no longer hold up? I'd say that the current income levels of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... * For one thing, why are certain groups in the lead despite facing many similar significant problems in their history? * For another thing, why are we assuming that a Harrison Bergeron level of equality of outcomes is possible or even desirable among distinct human groups? As far as "More members of Group A are also put in jail compared to Group B" is concerned, I'm not 100% sure of which group you're referring to here, but I'd recommend that you look into FBI crime statistics for a deeper dive into why this may occur. There's 10,000 ways to analyze the reason for complex stats. Is is possible that some groups commit more crimes than others? Is it possible that police spend more time policing certain areas not to punish certain groups, but to try and protect them as best as possible, and therefore there's other explanations for why unequal criminal justice system outcomes happens other than "racism". PS: As an overall comment on your perspective, I'm very distrustful of what I call "God of the Gaps" style arguments. According to Wikipedia, this is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence. For example, many years ago when scholars were debating some idea like how the universe emerged or what causes lightning, they defaulted to "god" or "the gods" did it when there was a gap in knowledge. In current_year, rather than god, we substitute various "isms" and "ists" as the only acceptable answer when the answer to certain questions either aren't known or can't be discussed for some reason. I don't find this style of answer to be intellectually honest or satisfying at all.
- sumedh 5y ago
  > The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police or killed by them now? > At what point does this argument no longer hold up? When Group A is treated equally as Group B. > of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps.
  - logicalmonster 5y ago
    > The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, Please point to one law or government policy in the US in CURRENT_YEAR that systemically discriminates against a specific group, so people are aware of it, so we can fix it. > are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police Examples of discrimination and racism exist, of course, and will probably always exist as long as all humans are not complete genetic clones of each other. But racism is different than systemic racism. > or killed by them now? There's many examples of good and bad policing applied against all racial groups (the torture and execution of Daniel Shaver might be the worst example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8), but I'd argue that the perception of how policing works doesn't meet reality. A small example: https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/cases-of-police-brutality-against-black-people-are-overestimated/ https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/cases-of-police-brutality-agai... > Participants across the political spectrum in the nationally representative survey were asked how many unarmed black men were killed by police in 2019. The results were revealing. Overall, nearly half of surveyed liberals (44 percent) estimated roughly between 1,000 and 10,000 unarmed black men were killed whereas 20 percent of conservatives estimated the same. > Most notably, the majority of respondents in each political category believed that police killed unarmed black men at an exponentially higher rate than in reality. Over 80 percent of liberals guessed at least 100 unarmed black men were killed compared to 66 percent of moderates and 54 percent of conservatives. But, according to a close database compiled by Mapping Police Violence, the actual number of black men killed by the police in 2019 is 27. > The second question the survey asked was: “In 2019, what percentage of people killed by police were Black?” While the survey states that the actual percentage is around 25 percent, the average survey respondent guessed 50 percent (58 percent for liberals and 41 percent for conservatives). The disconnect between perception and reality couldn’t be starker. Any police murder is horrific, but the perception of the scale of the issue is IMO radically wrong. > When Group A is treated equally as Group B. If your criteria for being treated equality is equality of outcome and not equality of opportunity, then there's probably never going to be any success in this regard unless we force ourselves to live a Harrison Bergeron existence. > Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. It doesn't matter what color somebody is, every group walked through a mile of shit in their history to get to the US and prosper: including being victims of slavery, genocides, facing discrimination, and other big issues. Some groups had it worse than others, of course, and we all recognize that. Yet any group can prosper today, as shown by Asians doing the best out of any group in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... > Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps. In the past, the default answer to many questions was "god did it". In the present, the default answer to many questions is "racism did it". When you look for it, you'll notice it.

by sumedh 5y ago

logicalmonster 5y ago

The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, which was the question asked, and is the only thing we can fix unless a time machine is invented. As far as your general comment goes, I get your point and I agree that it's a reasonable argument for some time period as an explanation of inequality, but at some point I'd argue that it doesn't hold up and ceases to explain reality. If in 25 years or 50 years or even 100+ more years, if there's still highly unequal economic outcomes, is the only answer still going to be an unequal start? At what point does this argument no longer hold up? I'd say that the current income levels of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... * For one thing, why are certain groups in the lead despite facing many similar significant problems in their history? * For another thing, why are we assuming that a Harrison Bergeron level of equality of outcomes is possible or even desirable among distinct human groups? As far as "More members of Group A are also put in jail compared to Group B" is concerned, I'm not 100% sure of which group you're referring to here, but I'd recommend that you look into FBI crime statistics for a deeper dive into why this may occur. There's 10,000 ways to analyze the reason for complex stats. Is is possible that some groups commit more crimes than others? Is it possible that police spend more time policing certain areas not to punish certain groups, but to try and protect them as best as possible, and therefore there's other explanations for why unequal criminal justice system outcomes happens other than "racism". PS: As an overall comment on your perspective, I'm very distrustful of what I call "God of the Gaps" style arguments. According to Wikipedia, this is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence. For example, many years ago when scholars were debating some idea like how the universe emerged or what causes lightning, they defaulted to "god" or "the gods" did it when there was a gap in knowledge. In current_year, rather than god, we substitute various "isms" and "ists" as the only acceptable answer when the answer to certain questions either aren't known or can't be discussed for some reason. I don't find this style of answer to be intellectually honest or satisfying at all.

sumedh 5y ago
> The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police or killed by them now? > At what point does this argument no longer hold up? When Group A is treated equally as Group B. > of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps.
- logicalmonster 5y ago
  > The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, Please point to one law or government policy in the US in CURRENT_YEAR that systemically discriminates against a specific group, so people are aware of it, so we can fix it. > are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police Examples of discrimination and racism exist, of course, and will probably always exist as long as all humans are not complete genetic clones of each other. But racism is different than systemic racism. > or killed by them now? There's many examples of good and bad policing applied against all racial groups (the torture and execution of Daniel Shaver might be the worst example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8), but I'd argue that the perception of how policing works doesn't meet reality. A small example: https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/cases-of-police-brutality-against-black-people-are-overestimated/ https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/cases-of-police-brutality-agai... > Participants across the political spectrum in the nationally representative survey were asked how many unarmed black men were killed by police in 2019. The results were revealing. Overall, nearly half of surveyed liberals (44 percent) estimated roughly between 1,000 and 10,000 unarmed black men were killed whereas 20 percent of conservatives estimated the same. > Most notably, the majority of respondents in each political category believed that police killed unarmed black men at an exponentially higher rate than in reality. Over 80 percent of liberals guessed at least 100 unarmed black men were killed compared to 66 percent of moderates and 54 percent of conservatives. But, according to a close database compiled by Mapping Police Violence, the actual number of black men killed by the police in 2019 is 27. > The second question the survey asked was: “In 2019, what percentage of people killed by police were Black?” While the survey states that the actual percentage is around 25 percent, the average survey respondent guessed 50 percent (58 percent for liberals and 41 percent for conservatives). The disconnect between perception and reality couldn’t be starker. Any police murder is horrific, but the perception of the scale of the issue is IMO radically wrong. > When Group A is treated equally as Group B. If your criteria for being treated equality is equality of outcome and not equality of opportunity, then there's probably never going to be any success in this regard unless we force ourselves to live a Harrison Bergeron existence. > Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. It doesn't matter what color somebody is, every group walked through a mile of shit in their history to get to the US and prosper: including being victims of slavery, genocides, facing discrimination, and other big issues. Some groups had it worse than others, of course, and we all recognize that. Yet any group can prosper today, as shown by Asians doing the best out of any group in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... > Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps. In the past, the default answer to many questions was "god did it". In the present, the default answer to many questions is "racism did it". When you look for it, you'll notice it.