4 ms·

I was talking global but sure in USA 40,000 per year. So an ongoing disaster of a far larger magnitude than covid all told, which is only 20 years worth of auto

I was talking global but sure in USA 40,000 per year. So an ongoing disaster of a far larger magnitude than covid all told, which is only 20 years worth of automobile deaths so far. So my point stands for USA as well. And we're generally not talking about crimes here, we're talking about people deciding not to wear masks, not to get vaccines, or to attend events or go about in public or go to work perhaps against advice of experts, but not breaking criminal laws. And who are you to be the decider of what exact number is acceptable or not? Who are you to say 40k/yr is okay? Some people surely believe that's far too many, so are you an anti science grandma killer for driving? No. Neither is someone who doesn't get vaccinated, doesn't wear a mask in public, and doesn't shut themselves in their homes and avoid going out in public. Can you not see that people can have different thoughts and values, assess risks differently, or have different opinions on the trustworthiness of government advice, without being evil boogymen?

Jill_the_Pill 5y ago
"So an ongoing disaster of a far larger magnitude than covid all told, which is only 20 years worth of automobile deaths so far." I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense. 40k annual auto deaths is of larger magnitude than 400,000 annual covid deaths? Are you saying that auto deaths are a more serious phenomenon because covid is . . . new? I certainly think 40,000 auto deaths is far too many. I would love to see the government step in with safety measures, as some levels of government have done for covid. We have indoor mask mandates where I live, as well as vaccine mandates for a number of public-facing job categories. People certainly have different thoughts, and sometimes those thoughts are muddled.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  No, I'm saying covid in the US has caused about 20 years worth of auto accidents, and with vaccinations and natural immunity and the pandemic running its course, it's not likely to reach the scale of the ongoing automobile disaster, which has been over 20k/yr for about 100 years and total might have killed about 3 million people and will continue to kill tens of thousands of people very year for many years to come. If covid does somehow reach that scale, then automobile deaths is still a perfectly valid comparison to use. And so my point stands. People aren't monsters, evil bigots, anti science or grandma killers for choosing to drive places, even though statistically that will result in increased deaths and increased load on the hospital system. They would also not be any of those things if they protested government bans on driving. I'm repeating myself though. If you simply can't accept that anybody could reasonably have a different opinion about things than you without being anti-science or evil or stupid or bigoted, I don't think you'll be able to understand or accept my point.
Valkhyr 5y ago
I'm not sure driving is a great analogy to taking/not taking a vaccine or refusing to follow COVID restrictions, but if we do, we also need to consider this: When driving, you can exercise caution and attempt to minimize the risk of an accident. I'm not from the US, but where I'm from you're also legally obligated to do so - if I drive and hit somebody, and it turns out I did so because I was going too fast or not paying proper attention to my surroundings, I will be held responsible for their injuries and damages. Further, there are laws stipulating what safety requirements newly sold cars have to meet: again, this may vary by country/state etc, but fairly common requirements are having an air bag and seat belts (which you are legally obligated to wear where I'm from, and you will be fined if you do not). I would say that the rules governing driving can be considered analogous to those governing social distancing, masking etc. And the safety guidelines for car manufacturers can correspond to vaccine mandates. Of course you are free to refuse to follow driving rules, but the only legal way to do so is to refuse to drive a car entirely. Just as you can be responsible and stay at home and avoid contact with anybody as much as possible if you refuse to be vaccinated.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Driving is a fine analogy in my opinion. It doesn't have to be 100% exact identical to the other situation to be able to explore the idea and consider different perspectives on the argument. Not wearing masks or shutting down the economy for the flu and common cold, obesity, driving cars, extreme sports, and more are all great analogies you can use to explore logical consequences of various measures or lack of measures being advocated for dealing with covid.
  - Jill_the_Pill 5y ago
    Maybe gun violence is the best analogy, as it is a situation where people's preferences and convenience are given priority over thousands of other people's lives.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      Maybe. I think automobiles is better because preventing driving prevents automobile deaths, so there is a pretty reasonable case to make that it is a necessary and sufficient measure to end deaths from car crashes. Pretty hard to rebut the automobile analogy, isn't it? Gun violence is illegal and quite significantly committed with illegally obtained guns and particularly pistols. So banning or increasing legal controls on rifles (for example) would not be an evidence based policy for reducing the largest sources of gun violence. Unless you are drawing parallels with the relatively low effectiveness of vaccines, but even then I don't think vaccines are quite that bad :)

Jill_the_Pill 5y ago

"So an ongoing disaster of a far larger magnitude than covid all told, which is only 20 years worth of automobile deaths so far." I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense. 40k annual auto deaths is of larger magnitude than 400,000 annual covid deaths? Are you saying that auto deaths are a more serious phenomenon because covid is . . . new? I certainly think 40,000 auto deaths is far too many. I would love to see the government step in with safety measures, as some levels of government have done for covid. We have indoor mask mandates where I live, as well as vaccine mandates for a number of public-facing job categories. People certainly have different thoughts, and sometimes those thoughts are muddled.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
No, I'm saying covid in the US has caused about 20 years worth of auto accidents, and with vaccinations and natural immunity and the pandemic running its course, it's not likely to reach the scale of the ongoing automobile disaster, which has been over 20k/yr for about 100 years and total might have killed about 3 million people and will continue to kill tens of thousands of people very year for many years to come. If covid does somehow reach that scale, then automobile deaths is still a perfectly valid comparison to use. And so my point stands. People aren't monsters, evil bigots, anti science or grandma killers for choosing to drive places, even though statistically that will result in increased deaths and increased load on the hospital system. They would also not be any of those things if they protested government bans on driving. I'm repeating myself though. If you simply can't accept that anybody could reasonably have a different opinion about things than you without being anti-science or evil or stupid or bigoted, I don't think you'll be able to understand or accept my point.

Valkhyr 5y ago

I'm not sure driving is a great analogy to taking/not taking a vaccine or refusing to follow COVID restrictions, but if we do, we also need to consider this: When driving, you can exercise caution and attempt to minimize the risk of an accident. I'm not from the US, but where I'm from you're also legally obligated to do so - if I drive and hit somebody, and it turns out I did so because I was going too fast or not paying proper attention to my surroundings, I will be held responsible for their injuries and damages. Further, there are laws stipulating what safety requirements newly sold cars have to meet: again, this may vary by country/state etc, but fairly common requirements are having an air bag and seat belts (which you are legally obligated to wear where I'm from, and you will be fined if you do not). I would say that the rules governing driving can be considered analogous to those governing social distancing, masking etc. And the safety guidelines for car manufacturers can correspond to vaccine mandates. Of course you are free to refuse to follow driving rules, but the only legal way to do so is to refuse to drive a car entirely. Just as you can be responsible and stay at home and avoid contact with anybody as much as possible if you refuse to be vaccinated.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Driving is a fine analogy in my opinion. It doesn't have to be 100% exact identical to the other situation to be able to explore the idea and consider different perspectives on the argument. Not wearing masks or shutting down the economy for the flu and common cold, obesity, driving cars, extreme sports, and more are all great analogies you can use to explore logical consequences of various measures or lack of measures being advocated for dealing with covid.
- Jill_the_Pill 5y ago
  Maybe gun violence is the best analogy, as it is a situation where people's preferences and convenience are given priority over thousands of other people's lives.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Maybe. I think automobiles is better because preventing driving prevents automobile deaths, so there is a pretty reasonable case to make that it is a necessary and sufficient measure to end deaths from car crashes. Pretty hard to rebut the automobile analogy, isn't it? Gun violence is illegal and quite significantly committed with illegally obtained guns and particularly pistols. So banning or increasing legal controls on rifles (for example) would not be an evidence based policy for reducing the largest sources of gun violence. Unless you are drawing parallels with the relatively low effectiveness of vaccines, but even then I don't think vaccines are quite that bad :)