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People value things differently. There's people who bristle at the idea that the government should coerce them into getting unwanted medical procedures or restr

People value things differently. There's people who bristle at the idea that the government should coerce them into getting unwanted medical procedures or restrict their movement. There's people who don't believe governments who have badly and repeatedly bungled the response to covid are a reliable or trustworthy authority on the matter. Not everyone may take covid exactly as seriously as you would wish them to, but it doesn't mean they don't take it seriously just because they value other things more. People going out en masse to protest police brutality for example apparently understood the risks of covid but believed their cause and their right to protest it to be more important. Who are you to say they are wrong? People who understood the risks but believed border closures to be wrong or racist believed that cause was more serious than covid, again who are we to say that's wrong? Do we have some ivory tower of government experts who are there to provide us unthinking plebs with the canonical guide for ranking everything in seriousness and importance? If we had the government telling us that driving automobiles causes a million deaths every year and the only way to solve it is for everyone to stop driving, but maybe we can start driving again after everyone's cars have been fitted with modifications to limit speed to 5mph which should be at least 90% effective at eliminating hospitalizations and deaths, then they're not exactly _wrong_, but of course people are going to protest it. If you drove anyway that does not mean you don't take automobile accidents seriously, that you're anti science, or that you're a grandma killer. You will certainly statistically increase the load on the hospital system if you drive, that choice does not make you responsible for possible deaths of other people who could not access sufficient medical treatment. Not even if you just went for a drive to the beach, up a mountain, or an aimless drive through the streets just because you enjoyed it.

Jill_the_Pill 5y ago
It's 30-40,000 automobile deaths a year, which is bad enough. If it were a million, I certainly hope the government would step in. And if you drove anyway, illegally, knowing that it caused a million deaths a year, it would reveal you to be an anti-science grandma killer, yes.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  I was talking global but sure in USA 40,000 per year. So an ongoing disaster of a far larger magnitude than covid all told, which is only 20 years worth of automobile deaths so far. So my point stands for USA as well. And we're generally not talking about crimes here, we're talking about people deciding not to wear masks, not to get vaccines, or to attend events or go about in public or go to work perhaps against advice of experts, but not breaking criminal laws. And who are you to be the decider of what exact number is acceptable or not? Who are you to say 40k/yr is okay? Some people surely believe that's far too many, so are you an anti science grandma killer for driving? No. Neither is someone who doesn't get vaccinated, doesn't wear a mask in public, and doesn't shut themselves in their homes and avoid going out in public. Can you not see that people can have different thoughts and values, assess risks differently, or have different opinions on the trustworthiness of government advice, without being evil boogymen?
  - Jill_the_Pill 5y ago
    "So an ongoing disaster of a far larger magnitude than covid all told, which is only 20 years worth of automobile deaths so far." I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense. 40k annual auto deaths is of larger magnitude than 400,000 annual covid deaths? Are you saying that auto deaths are a more serious phenomenon because covid is . . . new? I certainly think 40,000 auto deaths is far too many. I would love to see the government step in with safety measures, as some levels of government have done for covid. We have indoor mask mandates where I live, as well as vaccine mandates for a number of public-facing job categories. People certainly have different thoughts, and sometimes those thoughts are muddled.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      No, I'm saying covid in the US has caused about 20 years worth of auto accidents, and with vaccinations and natural immunity and the pandemic running its course, it's not likely to reach the scale of the ongoing automobile disaster, which has been over 20k/yr for about 100 years and total might have killed about 3 million people and will continue to kill tens of thousands of people very year for many years to come. If covid does somehow reach that scale, then automobile deaths is still a perfectly valid comparison to use. And so my point stands. People aren't monsters, evil bigots, anti science or grandma killers for choosing to drive places, even though statistically that will result in increased deaths and increased load on the hospital system. They would also not be any of those things if they protested government bans on driving. I'm repeating myself though. If you simply can't accept that anybody could reasonably have a different opinion about things than you without being anti-science or evil or stupid or bigoted, I don't think you'll be able to understand or accept my point.
elzbardico 5y ago
Forget cars. Think cigarettes. They kill way more people every year and even if we banned it tomorrow it would keep on killing for the next 20 years
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Obesity too. As well as the injury to the sufferers, load they put on the hospital and healthcare system, and wider society is just staggering. Hundreds of billions, or about 20% of annual medical spending in the United States is due to obesity. And yet I would never ever advocate for restaurants to demand BMI licenses for service, people denied jobs or freedom to travel or freedom to buy and eat the food they want to combat this, or forced gastric surgery "for the greater good". It would be horrific and inhumane.
  - toqy 5y ago
    If you could transfer your obesity and smoking habit to me by being too close to me at Target it would be a good comparison. Kill yourself however you please by all means.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      No, obesity puts a huge load on the hospital system and therefore deprive others of health care. This is one of the arguments used to bully people who don't want to be vaccinated.
      - toqy 5y ago
        If there was a vaccine for obesity i would absolutely bully you into getting it for the same reason
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      Transmission according to the CDC involves prolonged close contact. Not very likely that you are going to catch it by a random choice encounter at target

Jill_the_Pill 5y ago

It's 30-40,000 automobile deaths a year, which is bad enough. If it were a million, I certainly hope the government would step in. And if you drove anyway, illegally, knowing that it caused a million deaths a year, it would reveal you to be an anti-science grandma killer, yes.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
I was talking global but sure in USA 40,000 per year. So an ongoing disaster of a far larger magnitude than covid all told, which is only 20 years worth of automobile deaths so far. So my point stands for USA as well. And we're generally not talking about crimes here, we're talking about people deciding not to wear masks, not to get vaccines, or to attend events or go about in public or go to work perhaps against advice of experts, but not breaking criminal laws. And who are you to be the decider of what exact number is acceptable or not? Who are you to say 40k/yr is okay? Some people surely believe that's far too many, so are you an anti science grandma killer for driving? No. Neither is someone who doesn't get vaccinated, doesn't wear a mask in public, and doesn't shut themselves in their homes and avoid going out in public. Can you not see that people can have different thoughts and values, assess risks differently, or have different opinions on the trustworthiness of government advice, without being evil boogymen?
- Jill_the_Pill 5y ago
  "So an ongoing disaster of a far larger magnitude than covid all told, which is only 20 years worth of automobile deaths so far." I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense. 40k annual auto deaths is of larger magnitude than 400,000 annual covid deaths? Are you saying that auto deaths are a more serious phenomenon because covid is . . . new? I certainly think 40,000 auto deaths is far too many. I would love to see the government step in with safety measures, as some levels of government have done for covid. We have indoor mask mandates where I live, as well as vaccine mandates for a number of public-facing job categories. People certainly have different thoughts, and sometimes those thoughts are muddled.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    No, I'm saying covid in the US has caused about 20 years worth of auto accidents, and with vaccinations and natural immunity and the pandemic running its course, it's not likely to reach the scale of the ongoing automobile disaster, which has been over 20k/yr for about 100 years and total might have killed about 3 million people and will continue to kill tens of thousands of people very year for many years to come. If covid does somehow reach that scale, then automobile deaths is still a perfectly valid comparison to use. And so my point stands. People aren't monsters, evil bigots, anti science or grandma killers for choosing to drive places, even though statistically that will result in increased deaths and increased load on the hospital system. They would also not be any of those things if they protested government bans on driving. I'm repeating myself though. If you simply can't accept that anybody could reasonably have a different opinion about things than you without being anti-science or evil or stupid or bigoted, I don't think you'll be able to understand or accept my point.

elzbardico 5y ago

Forget cars. Think cigarettes. They kill way more people every year and even if we banned it tomorrow it would keep on killing for the next 20 years

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Obesity too. As well as the injury to the sufferers, load they put on the hospital and healthcare system, and wider society is just staggering. Hundreds of billions, or about 20% of annual medical spending in the United States is due to obesity. And yet I would never ever advocate for restaurants to demand BMI licenses for service, people denied jobs or freedom to travel or freedom to buy and eat the food they want to combat this, or forced gastric surgery "for the greater good". It would be horrific and inhumane.
- toqy 5y ago
  If you could transfer your obesity and smoking habit to me by being too close to me at Target it would be a good comparison. Kill yourself however you please by all means.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    No, obesity puts a huge load on the hospital system and therefore deprive others of health care. This is one of the arguments used to bully people who don't want to be vaccinated.
    - toqy 5y ago
      If there was a vaccine for obesity i would absolutely bully you into getting it for the same reason
  - elzbardico 5y ago
    Transmission according to the CDC involves prolonged close contact. Not very likely that you are going to catch it by a random choice encounter at target