4 ms·

Okay, doesn't it feel crazy that we're just throwing ideas out there and if it seems to justify the spending for something totally unrelated, it'll have a reaso

Okay, doesn't it feel crazy that we're just throwing ideas out there and if it seems to justify the spending for something totally unrelated, it'll have a reasonable chance of becoming literally the highest law of the land? Maybe it's because I'm not in the room, but this feels incredibly slapdash for something so incredibly important.

sneak 5y ago
I expect to see a lot of crazy selfdestructive, self-sabotaging schemes from the USA during the remainder of the attempt at empire, which I expect to last the entirety of the rest of my life. Most of the up and coming interesting industries that have been happening in the last ten years are mostly happening outside of the USA, and this trend will only continue as it becomes harder and harder to operate there.
- losvedir 5y ago
  Curious to know what up and coming industries you mean?
  - sneak 5y ago
    Cryptocurrencies, advanced semiconductors, and cheap per-passenger rail/aircraft. USA is winning on rockets and EVs but that is 100% because of one person and not wider US policy (and I assume most of his production of the latter will be non-US within 5 years).
    - posguy 5y ago
      Samsung (South Korea), TSMC (Taiwan) and Intel (US, Israel) locate their fabs in small countries that are heavily dependent on the US for ensuring their neighbors do not attack. Two of those three (TSMC & Intel) are building fabs in Arizona due to political pressure, hefty subsidies and geological stability of the area (reducing the number of defects in chips).
      - fooey 5y ago
        The fabs in AZ are them fishing for ultra massive government handouts. I'll believe it when I see it if the things actually start producing chips within a couple decades.
        rsj_hn 5y ago
        You don't think AZ already has a massive fab industry? What is so hard to believe about two more fabs opening up to add to the four Intel already has in the state, together with the new fab already opened by NXP? It's true that Motorola shut down it's old plant in Mesa, but still there is a large workforce in the area. https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/semiconductor-fabs-dotting-arizona-silicon-desert/ https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/semiconductor-fabs-dot... https://www.phonearena.com/news/construction-of-tsmc-5nm-fab-in-phoenix-begins_id132524 https://www.phonearena.com/news/construction-of-tsmc-5nm-fab...
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      > USA is winning on rockets and EVs but that is 100% because of one person and not wider US policy The US has been far ahead in space since the 1960s, and advanced work in space is by NASA (and contractors). SpaceX has advanced orbital launches. The US is the leader in many, many industries, including IT.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> we're just throwing ideas out there This language was proposed by Wyden at least two years ago, and has gone through multiple rounds of refinements. (For example, the original text didn’t exempt private assets.) It’s not unrelated because income taxes are how we pay for general expenses in this country. (Granted, limiting it to billionaires always struck me as a way to make it palatable for a lower, e.g. $10mm, threshold.)
wolverine876 5y ago
> if it seems to justify the spending for something totally unrelated Income taxes pay for almost everything; should they only pay for things related to income? I don't understand that.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Technically only half [0]. And my point is I would expect something more thought through than trotting out each legislator's favorite pet taxation overhaul. A few days to consider amongst the options doesn't really seem like enough time, but I guess we're still talking about "a framework" so there will be more time. They're not attempting to pass any of this right now. [0] - https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-sources-revenue-federal-government https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-sourc...
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    The options have been considered and developed for years, decades even. There should be public debate, but these aren't new ideas that some novices are pulling out of a hat.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      How would I be able to verify that? It seems like these are not very well considered options, based on my limited view.
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        I know it because I've read about them for years. Keep up on public affairs; it's sometimes almost impossible to show up at the last minute and be informed.
        TameAntelope 5y ago
        Well that's the thing; I do keep pretty well up with public affairs, and from what I can tell, most of these ideas come from academia, but without much rigor or data to support these new taxation plans, and the legislators who support them do so for largely un-scientific reasons (e.g. has a good hook for a title). So when I say this all seems slapdash, I mean that I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the way by which these taxation plans are coming out of the woodwork. Feels like an episode of West Wing, the one with the Cartographers for Social Equity.
Rebelgecko 5y ago
Basically they're trying to figure out how to increase revenue while still being able to claim they're not increasing personal income or corporate tax rates. That's why theyre also looking at schemes like reducing maximum retirement contributions- it's technically not a tax increase, it's just a change that increases the taxes you'll have to pay in retirement

sneak 5y ago

I expect to see a lot of crazy selfdestructive, self-sabotaging schemes from the USA during the remainder of the attempt at empire, which I expect to last the entirety of the rest of my life. Most of the up and coming interesting industries that have been happening in the last ten years are mostly happening outside of the USA, and this trend will only continue as it becomes harder and harder to operate there.

losvedir 5y ago
Curious to know what up and coming industries you mean?
- sneak 5y ago
  Cryptocurrencies, advanced semiconductors, and cheap per-passenger rail/aircraft. USA is winning on rockets and EVs but that is 100% because of one person and not wider US policy (and I assume most of his production of the latter will be non-US within 5 years).
  - posguy 5y ago
    Samsung (South Korea), TSMC (Taiwan) and Intel (US, Israel) locate their fabs in small countries that are heavily dependent on the US for ensuring their neighbors do not attack. Two of those three (TSMC & Intel) are building fabs in Arizona due to political pressure, hefty subsidies and geological stability of the area (reducing the number of defects in chips).
    - fooey 5y ago
      The fabs in AZ are them fishing for ultra massive government handouts. I'll believe it when I see it if the things actually start producing chips within a couple decades.
      - rsj_hn 5y ago
        You don't think AZ already has a massive fab industry? What is so hard to believe about two more fabs opening up to add to the four Intel already has in the state, together with the new fab already opened by NXP? It's true that Motorola shut down it's old plant in Mesa, but still there is a large workforce in the area. https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/semiconductor-fabs-dotting-arizona-silicon-desert/ https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/semiconductor-fabs-dot... https://www.phonearena.com/news/construction-of-tsmc-5nm-fab-in-phoenix-begins_id132524 https://www.phonearena.com/news/construction-of-tsmc-5nm-fab...
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > USA is winning on rockets and EVs but that is 100% because of one person and not wider US policy The US has been far ahead in space since the 1960s, and advanced work in space is by NASA (and contractors). SpaceX has advanced orbital launches. The US is the leader in many, many industries, including IT.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> we're just throwing ideas out there This language was proposed by Wyden at least two years ago, and has gone through multiple rounds of refinements. (For example, the original text didn’t exempt private assets.) It’s not unrelated because income taxes are how we pay for general expenses in this country. (Granted, limiting it to billionaires always struck me as a way to make it palatable for a lower, e.g. $10mm, threshold.)

wolverine876 5y ago

> if it seems to justify the spending for something totally unrelated Income taxes pay for almost everything; should they only pay for things related to income? I don't understand that.

TameAntelope 5y ago
Technically only half [0]. And my point is I would expect something more thought through than trotting out each legislator's favorite pet taxation overhaul. A few days to consider amongst the options doesn't really seem like enough time, but I guess we're still talking about "a framework" so there will be more time. They're not attempting to pass any of this right now. [0] - https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-sources-revenue-federal-government https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-sourc...
- wolverine876 5y ago
  The options have been considered and developed for years, decades even. There should be public debate, but these aren't new ideas that some novices are pulling out of a hat.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    How would I be able to verify that? It seems like these are not very well considered options, based on my limited view.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      I know it because I've read about them for years. Keep up on public affairs; it's sometimes almost impossible to show up at the last minute and be informed.
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        Well that's the thing; I do keep pretty well up with public affairs, and from what I can tell, most of these ideas come from academia, but without much rigor or data to support these new taxation plans, and the legislators who support them do so for largely un-scientific reasons (e.g. has a good hook for a title). So when I say this all seems slapdash, I mean that I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the way by which these taxation plans are coming out of the woodwork. Feels like an episode of West Wing, the one with the Cartographers for Social Equity.

Rebelgecko 5y ago

Basically they're trying to figure out how to increase revenue while still being able to claim they're not increasing personal income or corporate tax rates. That's why theyre also looking at schemes like reducing maximum retirement contributions- it's technically not a tax increase, it's just a change that increases the taxes you'll have to pay in retirement