4 ms·

You mean old middle class, and poor homeowners, can stay in the house they raised a family in? The only reason my high school educated 80 years old mother in d

You mean old middle class, and poor homeowners, can stay in the house they raised a family in? The only reason my high school educated 80 years old mother in declining health can stay in a home, and county, she feels somewhat safe is because of prop 13. Her biannual property taxes are still a big deal when they arrive. I've said this before, but I'm beginning to think if you didn't live through the craziness before Prop 13, you won't ever quite get it. Prop 13 has been the only blessing most homeowners have been given. If you want to put income limits on the gift of prop 13 fine, but doing away with it completely would be evil. By income limits I mean the guy making $600,000/year, and a huge bank account, could probally still survive without prop 13 protection. The 80 year old lady, or man, surviving on 1/2 widower's blue collar pension is another story. (I'm for means testing on all programs. I'm also for tieing all societal fees/fines---speeding tickets, registration, patent fees, etc. to 1040 income/assets wealth.)

Msw242 5y ago
Prop 13 disincentivizes building housing. Stop calling people evil just because your grandmother isn't the center of their policy concerns.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  > Prop 13 disincentivizes building housing. I didn't think we reached the point where people are arguing that things that make housing more valuable disincentivize building more homes - but here we are. It is zoning restrictions, EIR, etc., that disincentivize housing.
  - Msw242 5y ago
    Prop 13 absolutely disincentivizes building housing. Other policies can also be bad. But grandma's house isn't being bulldozed to make way for a quadplex because she's insulated from the market. https://www.kqed.org/news/11700683/too-few-homes-is-proposition-13-to-blame-for-californias-housing-shortage https://www.kqed.org/news/11700683/too-few-homes-is-proposit... But if you own a home in California, you are incentivized to maintain prop 13. It's funny how hard it is for people to understand something when it cuts against their personal interests.
satyrnein 5y ago
What seems odd to me (if I understand it correctly) is that prop 13 keeps your property tax low, but you still get the full benefit of the appreciation in price when you sell the property. It kind of seems like if it's artificially keeping the tax low, the full tax bill should come due at some point, which would logically be at the change of ownership.
- saltcured 5y ago
  Property tax is the recurring value tax, kind of a wealth tax while you hold a property, and prop 13 does shield much of the appreciated value from this. A new homeowner might be paying 1-2% of market price per year, while an elderly neighbor might pay 1-2% of an assessed value that is closer to a market value from 20+ years ago. The assessment does increase at a very slow rate, and in larger jumps with remodeling or other improvements. At the sale, the appreciation becomes realized as capital gains income. There are some rules making a portion of gains tax-exempt for a typical homeowner, but the remainder of a large appreciation is taxed as income. There can also be a sales/transfer tax on the transaction, which is of a comparable rate to the annual property tax rate. The third significant event is inheritance, where the house could pass to an heir without a sale and have its basis updated to current value. This is when the appreciated gains can really go untaxed.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  1. Name one other perk government gave poor, or middle class, homeowners. If you are lucky, and hard working, you might end up being a homeowner. You will appreciate a reasonable tax bill when you arn't spunky, and making money, later in life. 2. Not all of us are budding business owners--excuse me Start-ups. We don't have business deductions, or anything else fancy. We fill out the short form. 3. I saw my father cry twice. Once at his mother's funeral, and yes when he opened that ever increasing property tax bill in the 70's. 4. People have no idea how county officials wasted those funds in the 70's. There were pet political projects, and just waste. 5. America was different back then. Most stuff was made here. Blaming Prop 13 is misdirected. 6. There's a part of me that wants to let the youngsters have their wish. I will sit back and watch homes being snatched up by wealthy foreigners, and corporations. They will buy up those homes, and we be in the same spot.
rsj_hn 5y ago
You can have carveouts for your 80 year old grandmother without freezing property taxes for everyone.
bryanlarsen 5y ago
Your mother could easily pay higher property taxes with a home equity line of credit. She probably should also be using that HELOC to fund a more comfortable lifestyle -- she probably needs that money more than her heirs do. (I'm assuming, given that you're posting on HN).
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  She's not in poverty. She has everything she wants. Her biggest want is living in the modest home she raised us. She knows about Home Equity Loans, and Reverse mortgages. Actually, I inherited my father's half of the home. I quitclimed it to my mother the minute I saw the final Accounting of Probate. I have a thankless job in a few states away. I have nothing. It would be nice being a blue collar worker to have something later in life if my mom sees fit. Life is complicated? I just know revoking prop 13 is not the answer. I'm sure wealthy foreigners, and corporate home buyers, are hoping this prop 13 hate continues though. (If you are going to rebut--please read the entire post.)

Msw242 5y ago

Prop 13 disincentivizes building housing. Stop calling people evil just because your grandmother isn't the center of their policy concerns.

rsj_hn 5y ago
> Prop 13 disincentivizes building housing. I didn't think we reached the point where people are arguing that things that make housing more valuable disincentivize building more homes - but here we are. It is zoning restrictions, EIR, etc., that disincentivize housing.
- Msw242 5y ago
  Prop 13 absolutely disincentivizes building housing. Other policies can also be bad. But grandma's house isn't being bulldozed to make way for a quadplex because she's insulated from the market. https://www.kqed.org/news/11700683/too-few-homes-is-proposition-13-to-blame-for-californias-housing-shortage https://www.kqed.org/news/11700683/too-few-homes-is-proposit... But if you own a home in California, you are incentivized to maintain prop 13. It's funny how hard it is for people to understand something when it cuts against their personal interests.

satyrnein 5y ago

What seems odd to me (if I understand it correctly) is that prop 13 keeps your property tax low, but you still get the full benefit of the appreciation in price when you sell the property. It kind of seems like if it's artificially keeping the tax low, the full tax bill should come due at some point, which would logically be at the change of ownership.

saltcured 5y ago
Property tax is the recurring value tax, kind of a wealth tax while you hold a property, and prop 13 does shield much of the appreciated value from this. A new homeowner might be paying 1-2% of market price per year, while an elderly neighbor might pay 1-2% of an assessed value that is closer to a market value from 20+ years ago. The assessment does increase at a very slow rate, and in larger jumps with remodeling or other improvements. At the sale, the appreciation becomes realized as capital gains income. There are some rules making a portion of gains tax-exempt for a typical homeowner, but the remainder of a large appreciation is taxed as income. There can also be a sales/transfer tax on the transaction, which is of a comparable rate to the annual property tax rate. The third significant event is inheritance, where the house could pass to an heir without a sale and have its basis updated to current value. This is when the appreciated gains can really go untaxed.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
1. Name one other perk government gave poor, or middle class, homeowners. If you are lucky, and hard working, you might end up being a homeowner. You will appreciate a reasonable tax bill when you arn't spunky, and making money, later in life. 2. Not all of us are budding business owners--excuse me Start-ups. We don't have business deductions, or anything else fancy. We fill out the short form. 3. I saw my father cry twice. Once at his mother's funeral, and yes when he opened that ever increasing property tax bill in the 70's. 4. People have no idea how county officials wasted those funds in the 70's. There were pet political projects, and just waste. 5. America was different back then. Most stuff was made here. Blaming Prop 13 is misdirected. 6. There's a part of me that wants to let the youngsters have their wish. I will sit back and watch homes being snatched up by wealthy foreigners, and corporations. They will buy up those homes, and we be in the same spot.

rsj_hn 5y ago

You can have carveouts for your 80 year old grandmother without freezing property taxes for everyone.

bryanlarsen 5y ago

Your mother could easily pay higher property taxes with a home equity line of credit. She probably should also be using that HELOC to fund a more comfortable lifestyle -- she probably needs that money more than her heirs do. (I'm assuming, given that you're posting on HN).

hellbannedguy 5y ago
She's not in poverty. She has everything she wants. Her biggest want is living in the modest home she raised us. She knows about Home Equity Loans, and Reverse mortgages. Actually, I inherited my father's half of the home. I quitclimed it to my mother the minute I saw the final Accounting of Probate. I have a thankless job in a few states away. I have nothing. It would be nice being a blue collar worker to have something later in life if my mom sees fit. Life is complicated? I just know revoking prop 13 is not the answer. I'm sure wealthy foreigners, and corporate home buyers, are hoping this prop 13 hate continues though. (If you are going to rebut--please read the entire post.)