3 ms·

I think this articles attributes intent and wisdom where it is not due and as such should be at best considered a romanticization of their culture. Even tough

I think this articles attributes intent and wisdom where it is not due and as such should be at best considered a romanticization of their culture. Even tough it seems they understand the choice they are making regarding some technology and even tough in many case with hindsight it appears that they made some judicious choices for their society wellbeing, I argue they do not have the tools to make those choices in an unbiased manner as those tought experiments are also technological byproducts. Their stance regarding modern medicine, tolerating it when someone is truly ill, seems particularly hypocritical if not disingenuous.

mikem170 5y ago
> I argue they do not have the tools to make those choices in an unbiased manner as those tought experiments are also technological byproducts. I wonder if the rest of us use technology in an unbiased experimental manner without regard to the consequences? As the decades go by we become increasingly stressed having to deal with commutes and corporations and bureaucracies and living in a world of phone zombies, mass media outrage, echo chambers, etc. All the While our world becomes more complex and less robust. Personally I think there's a huge lack of intent and wisdom on our part. As a group we're focused on novelty and profit instead of people, and don't seem to be so great at dealing with the resulting problems like pollution, inequality, depression, etc.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  I am reminded of that probably fictional but nonetheless instructive anecdote involving Minsky and a young Sussman coding a neural network. Ignorance of the biases of your culture does not eliminate those biases, as it were. All technology is the product of people with beliefs about prevailing conditions and beliefs of what is valuable. As the articles says, technology is not some isolated, abstract thing. It is embedded in a much larger reality that is indeed value-laden, thus making technology itself value-laden.
- satellite2 5y ago
  Only the future will tell if we manage to solve problems faster than we are creating new ones. But I'm pretty sure abdication means death at this point. We are not crocodiles that managed to find a timeless form and effortless survival behaviour. We are brand new, extremely weak but extremely smart, I think it's pretty revealing about our nature and survival options.
  - mikem170 5y ago
    > Only the future will tell if we manage to solve problems faster than we are creating new ones. We've already accumulated a ton of technical debt, just like so much feature packed bowl of spaghetti software. Were cars worth it, the long commutes and destruction of neighborhoods versus the independence? People seem to miss the way things used to be. And the debt from the last 75 years of frantic building is still accumulating - crowded roads, car-only subdivisions full of low-income folks living five to a house because you can't get to work without a car, etc. A similar argument can be made about computers - the personal alienation and the impersonal bureaucracies versus the huge increase in available information, but with the possibility of a future nightmare of totalitarian surveillance and control. I didn't mean to argue with anything you said. Perhaps I just see the situation as more acute. I like my tech debt analogy. Just like bad code it is not just about the current problems, but also the future problems we've already baked into the system.
- Dudeman112 5y ago
  > wonder if the rest of us use technology in an unbiased experimental manner without regard to the consequences? There aren't bloggers out there implying the rest of us are sagely engaging/disengaging with the technology. I think GP is annoyed by attributing unwarranted wisdom. Maybe it is a result of wisdom, but those bloggers certainly aren't giving good arguments for it. What would we observe differently if it were regular technophobia?
snarf21 5y ago
I live in Lancaster and I think people project some of these things onto the Amish that aren't true. It isn't technology specifically that the Amish try to avoid, it is consumerism writ large. Now, they do make their own clothes from plain colored cloth and don't have car payments and mortgages but it is still something they struggle with as a group. I always think of their approach as trying to prioritize people over things. However, there are lots of Amish that have freezers hidden in the barn running off generators. If the clergy shows up, it is unplugged and everyone pretends it isn't there. Lots of the children have cell phones hidden in the corn fields that they sneak out and use (even outside of those that are on rumspringa). Given the lack of affordable farm land, lots of the Amish now work in the trades. Someone picks them up in a F-350 crew-cab and takes them to work, but not before they stop at the Sheetz/WaWa to buy soda and candy and lunch just like all the other workers. Our Costco has tie-ups for the Amish and they come out with several carts loaded to the max. They continue to struggle with the modern world and it is getting harder each generation for them to remain insular.
iammisc 5y ago
> Their stance regarding modern medicine, tolerating it when someone is truly ill, seems particularly hypocritical if not disingenuous. Can you explain? The amish are not against technology by any means. They just don't think you need to let it run you. I mean, as many said, the amish use telephones and even cars if necessary for business, or emergency. How is this any different?

mikem170 5y ago

> I argue they do not have the tools to make those choices in an unbiased manner as those tought experiments are also technological byproducts. I wonder if the rest of us use technology in an unbiased experimental manner without regard to the consequences? As the decades go by we become increasingly stressed having to deal with commutes and corporations and bureaucracies and living in a world of phone zombies, mass media outrage, echo chambers, etc. All the While our world becomes more complex and less robust. Personally I think there's a huge lack of intent and wisdom on our part. As a group we're focused on novelty and profit instead of people, and don't seem to be so great at dealing with the resulting problems like pollution, inequality, depression, etc.

bobthechef 5y ago
I am reminded of that probably fictional but nonetheless instructive anecdote involving Minsky and a young Sussman coding a neural network. Ignorance of the biases of your culture does not eliminate those biases, as it were. All technology is the product of people with beliefs about prevailing conditions and beliefs of what is valuable. As the articles says, technology is not some isolated, abstract thing. It is embedded in a much larger reality that is indeed value-laden, thus making technology itself value-laden.
satellite2 5y ago
Only the future will tell if we manage to solve problems faster than we are creating new ones. But I'm pretty sure abdication means death at this point. We are not crocodiles that managed to find a timeless form and effortless survival behaviour. We are brand new, extremely weak but extremely smart, I think it's pretty revealing about our nature and survival options.
- mikem170 5y ago
  > Only the future will tell if we manage to solve problems faster than we are creating new ones. We've already accumulated a ton of technical debt, just like so much feature packed bowl of spaghetti software. Were cars worth it, the long commutes and destruction of neighborhoods versus the independence? People seem to miss the way things used to be. And the debt from the last 75 years of frantic building is still accumulating - crowded roads, car-only subdivisions full of low-income folks living five to a house because you can't get to work without a car, etc. A similar argument can be made about computers - the personal alienation and the impersonal bureaucracies versus the huge increase in available information, but with the possibility of a future nightmare of totalitarian surveillance and control. I didn't mean to argue with anything you said. Perhaps I just see the situation as more acute. I like my tech debt analogy. Just like bad code it is not just about the current problems, but also the future problems we've already baked into the system.
Dudeman112 5y ago
> wonder if the rest of us use technology in an unbiased experimental manner without regard to the consequences? There aren't bloggers out there implying the rest of us are sagely engaging/disengaging with the technology. I think GP is annoyed by attributing unwarranted wisdom. Maybe it is a result of wisdom, but those bloggers certainly aren't giving good arguments for it. What would we observe differently if it were regular technophobia?

snarf21 5y ago

I live in Lancaster and I think people project some of these things onto the Amish that aren't true. It isn't technology specifically that the Amish try to avoid, it is consumerism writ large. Now, they do make their own clothes from plain colored cloth and don't have car payments and mortgages but it is still something they struggle with as a group. I always think of their approach as trying to prioritize people over things. However, there are lots of Amish that have freezers hidden in the barn running off generators. If the clergy shows up, it is unplugged and everyone pretends it isn't there. Lots of the children have cell phones hidden in the corn fields that they sneak out and use (even outside of those that are on rumspringa). Given the lack of affordable farm land, lots of the Amish now work in the trades. Someone picks them up in a F-350 crew-cab and takes them to work, but not before they stop at the Sheetz/WaWa to buy soda and candy and lunch just like all the other workers. Our Costco has tie-ups for the Amish and they come out with several carts loaded to the max. They continue to struggle with the modern world and it is getting harder each generation for them to remain insular.

iammisc 5y ago

> Their stance regarding modern medicine, tolerating it when someone is truly ill, seems particularly hypocritical if not disingenuous. Can you explain? The amish are not against technology by any means. They just don't think you need to let it run you. I mean, as many said, the amish use telephones and even cars if necessary for business, or emergency. How is this any different?