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It's not just the Amish. Many communities have decided they wish to live at ~1850. It has always made me curious why, what do they know? If you look deeply in

It's not just the Amish. Many communities have decided they wish to live at ~1850. It has always made me curious why, what do they know? If you look deeply in many religions they are the same. Buddhist monks aren't excluded from tech but they certainly dont own any themselves. Why? Because it's something to consider and create desires. Just as they shave their head not because of aesthetics but because now you never have to worry about your hair looking bad. When you eliminate the unnecessary from your life, you certainly live a happier life.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
No it's that if they leave the Amish they lose their community. I realize it's cool to fetishize them but think of them like the Jehovah's witnesses.
- rvbissell 5y ago
  Yes, the shunning is problematic. But there is one key difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and the Amish, in this respect: The Amish encourage their teenagers to go experience the modern world, before making that commitment. Among Jehovah's Witnesses, that kind of pre-commitment behavior would lead to (reversible) soft-shunning. I think the rational play for an Amish youth would be to not commit to the religion, but live the lifestyle. That's not really feasible for a young adult who was brought up as a JW child, after a certain age. They would be gradually excluded from their baptized cohorts, even if never shunned outright.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    How is shunning problematic. If they didn't shun, they would no longer be amish, or be able to preserve their culture. Perhaps we should appreciate the upside of asceticism.
    - rvbissell 5y ago
      Note that my comment was about comparisons between the Amish & JW flavors of shunning, rather than the Amish specifically. I believe my first paragraph was clear that I think the Amish model of shunning is the more reasonable of the two. Let's also notice that you chose to say 'preserve their culture', whereas in the comment you replied to I was speaking of religions (and also, albeit implicitly, cults.) I'll come back to your Culture point, but I have to answer your question in the context of what I meant, not what you meant. Religious shunning is problematic because it harms the individual. Again using Jehovah's Witnesses as an example: JW children are under intense peer pressure to make their commitment at an early age. They are strongly discouraged from building up a social network outside of the JW domain, or even to pursue higher education. So if a JW child gets baptized at 14, and then when 20+ realizes they are gay (or atheist, or buddhist), coming out as such after making that JW commitment causes them significant social, economic, & psychological harm. But does it protect the religion? Absolutely. That's the whole point, individual-be-damned (if you'll forgive the pun.) As to your point about Amish culture: religion & culture can be orthogonal to varying degrees. I suspect the Amish are one of the extreme examples, where religion & culture overlap inextricably. There are many aspects to their culture that are especially precious to them, and so it only makes sense that they wish to preserve it. But still, it would be willfully myopic to not concede that the shunning harms the individual. Atleast /rumspringa/ gives their youth the ability to make a more informed decision, and even a way to avoid complete ostracism even if they explicitly choose to live as though English, and never make the commitment to be Amish. I give them credit for that accommodation, relative to the shunning that other insular religious groups do.
      - iammisc 5y ago
        > religion & culture can be orthogonal to varying degrees I fundamentally disagree and I think this is where a lot of Westerners get hung up on dealing with other countries. There are non-religious cultural practices for sure, but these are not practiced independent of religion.
throw6746 5y ago
> When you eliminate the unnecessary from your life, you certainly live a happier life. Unnecessary for you maybe, it doesn't look very happy to me
dfxm12 5y ago
I have a colleague who constantly talks about not having a cell phone and how freeing it is, but on the other hand, he's always asking someone to look something up, asks for someone to navigate him to where we're going for lunch, asks to borrow a phone to call his wife, etc. It really looks like this guy would be happier with a phone. Are phones unnecessary? Maybe, maybe not, but IMO, the way to a happier life isn't to ignore things, but to find a balance (or develop the self-discipline) to use something like a cell phone in a way where it can improve your life.
- klyrs 5y ago
  I was a very late smartphone adopter. I had a map in the glovebox and would look at a maps website on a desktop/laptop before leaving for somewhere unfamiliar. Your colleague doesn't seem to have figured out the technology that smartphones have replaced.
logosmonkey 5y ago
Many Buddhist monks own cell phones. Many even own laptops. Additionally let's not romanticize the Amish community. They have significant social issues just like any other society, their lack of modern technology doesn't make their society a utopia, it just makes it different. Maybe in some good ways, sure, but it doesn't solve for endemic rape, incest and abuse for instance.
setpatchaddress 5y ago
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/buddhist-monks-with-their-iphones-at-angkor-wat-a-unesco-world-site-picture-id526271618 https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/buddhist-monks-with-the... It's more complicated than that. Always. The monks I've known accept modern science, medicine, etc cheerfully. It's not really relevant to Buddhist spirituality any more than the advent of frozen fish sticks was. It's fine to LARP 1850 if that's your bag. But people who truly wish to live in the confines of that era will have children who die of cholera. We should all be grateful for the upsides of modern society.
- nirav72 5y ago
  Just a simple example is seeing Buddhist monks having a watch around their wrist. I actually saw one with an apple watch.
- iammisc 5y ago
  Modern medicine often got its start in 1800s monasteries.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
A lot of the Tibetan monks I have seen in the US seem to be really excited about their cell phones and are on them all the time.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

No it's that if they leave the Amish they lose their community. I realize it's cool to fetishize them but think of them like the Jehovah's witnesses.

rvbissell 5y ago
Yes, the shunning is problematic. But there is one key difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and the Amish, in this respect: The Amish encourage their teenagers to go experience the modern world, before making that commitment. Among Jehovah's Witnesses, that kind of pre-commitment behavior would lead to (reversible) soft-shunning. I think the rational play for an Amish youth would be to not commit to the religion, but live the lifestyle. That's not really feasible for a young adult who was brought up as a JW child, after a certain age. They would be gradually excluded from their baptized cohorts, even if never shunned outright.
- iammisc 5y ago
  How is shunning problematic. If they didn't shun, they would no longer be amish, or be able to preserve their culture. Perhaps we should appreciate the upside of asceticism.
  - rvbissell 5y ago
    Note that my comment was about comparisons between the Amish & JW flavors of shunning, rather than the Amish specifically. I believe my first paragraph was clear that I think the Amish model of shunning is the more reasonable of the two. Let's also notice that you chose to say 'preserve their culture', whereas in the comment you replied to I was speaking of religions (and also, albeit implicitly, cults.) I'll come back to your Culture point, but I have to answer your question in the context of what I meant, not what you meant. Religious shunning is problematic because it harms the individual. Again using Jehovah's Witnesses as an example: JW children are under intense peer pressure to make their commitment at an early age. They are strongly discouraged from building up a social network outside of the JW domain, or even to pursue higher education. So if a JW child gets baptized at 14, and then when 20+ realizes they are gay (or atheist, or buddhist), coming out as such after making that JW commitment causes them significant social, economic, & psychological harm. But does it protect the religion? Absolutely. That's the whole point, individual-be-damned (if you'll forgive the pun.) As to your point about Amish culture: religion & culture can be orthogonal to varying degrees. I suspect the Amish are one of the extreme examples, where religion & culture overlap inextricably. There are many aspects to their culture that are especially precious to them, and so it only makes sense that they wish to preserve it. But still, it would be willfully myopic to not concede that the shunning harms the individual. Atleast /rumspringa/ gives their youth the ability to make a more informed decision, and even a way to avoid complete ostracism even if they explicitly choose to live as though English, and never make the commitment to be Amish. I give them credit for that accommodation, relative to the shunning that other insular religious groups do.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      > religion & culture can be orthogonal to varying degrees I fundamentally disagree and I think this is where a lot of Westerners get hung up on dealing with other countries. There are non-religious cultural practices for sure, but these are not practiced independent of religion.

throw6746 5y ago

> When you eliminate the unnecessary from your life, you certainly live a happier life. Unnecessary for you maybe, it doesn't look very happy to me

dfxm12 5y ago

I have a colleague who constantly talks about not having a cell phone and how freeing it is, but on the other hand, he's always asking someone to look something up, asks for someone to navigate him to where we're going for lunch, asks to borrow a phone to call his wife, etc. It really looks like this guy would be happier with a phone. Are phones unnecessary? Maybe, maybe not, but IMO, the way to a happier life isn't to ignore things, but to find a balance (or develop the self-discipline) to use something like a cell phone in a way where it can improve your life.

klyrs 5y ago
I was a very late smartphone adopter. I had a map in the glovebox and would look at a maps website on a desktop/laptop before leaving for somewhere unfamiliar. Your colleague doesn't seem to have figured out the technology that smartphones have replaced.

logosmonkey 5y ago

Many Buddhist monks own cell phones. Many even own laptops. Additionally let's not romanticize the Amish community. They have significant social issues just like any other society, their lack of modern technology doesn't make their society a utopia, it just makes it different. Maybe in some good ways, sure, but it doesn't solve for endemic rape, incest and abuse for instance.

setpatchaddress 5y ago

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/buddhist-monks-with-their-iphones-at-angkor-wat-a-unesco-world-site-picture-id526271618 https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/buddhist-monks-with-the... It's more complicated than that. Always. The monks I've known accept modern science, medicine, etc cheerfully. It's not really relevant to Buddhist spirituality any more than the advent of frozen fish sticks was. It's fine to LARP 1850 if that's your bag. But people who truly wish to live in the confines of that era will have children who die of cholera. We should all be grateful for the upsides of modern society.

nirav72 5y ago
Just a simple example is seeing Buddhist monks having a watch around their wrist. I actually saw one with an apple watch.
iammisc 5y ago
Modern medicine often got its start in 1800s monasteries.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

A lot of the Tibetan monks I have seen in the US seem to be really excited about their cell phones and are on them all the time.