6 ms·

> However, most users who aren't willing to become technically savvy will have a better time with windows. Here's what I've observed on this one. If you put a

by zrm 5y ago

> However, most users who aren't willing to become technically savvy will have a better time with windows. Here's what I've observed on this one. If you put a Linux machine in front of, say, a 15 year old, they immediately figure it out. If you put one in front of an adult who has been using Windows for 30 years, they get mad at you. Because they already know how to do Z thing in Windows and for Linux they have to figure it out or look it up. Which as a general rule isn't any harder to do on Linux than it is on Windows -- it's often easier -- but they already did it on Windows 30 years ago and don't want to do it again. That lasts for all of a few hours of use before they've figured out how to do the things they commonly do, if they don't give up.

benbristow 5y ago
> If you put a Linux machine in front of, say, a 15 year old, they immediately figure it out. Until they need to do anything off the beaten track, which can be something as simple as changing the mouse speed (I'm not making this up) and you google it and it's telling you to run terminal commands and update your Xorg.conf file.
- marcodiego 5y ago
  On my Ubuntu 20.04 machine: pressed super (windows key), typed "mouse"; it showed me mouse setting which I clicked; there was a slider named "touchpad speed". It is nowhere near complicated and you don't have to run terminal commands or update your Xorg.conf file.
  - benbristow 5y ago
    That's touchpad speed though, not mouse speed. And this was on Linux Mint, which is meant to be a beginner's Linux distro.
    - marcodiego 5y ago
      Sorry, I bit it. Plugged a mouse just to test it: the procedure is EXACTLY the same. And Ubuntu is not a hard for beginners distro. You're parroting outdated false comments.
      - benbristow 5y ago
        I think I was on KDE and tried to change my mouse speed and couldn't find a slider to save my life. It was just one example though. I tried to install a NVIDIA driver for example on Linux Mint and it wouldn't work until I edited some file to use a different kernel module that would start earlier. Spent ages trying to debug it. On Windows the driver gets installed automatically and if I want to update it I just launch the Geforce Experience and hit one button.
        WD-42 5y ago
        Ah yes, Geforce Experience. You mean the bloatware Nvidia makes you create an account for just to install their drivers? On Linux I simply type pacman -S nvidia to install the drivers on my system. Reboot and it's done. There is even a GUI to install packages, since that seems like it's important for you.
        benbristow 5y ago
        You're talking about Arch Linux there though which definitely isn't for the average user, and again you're needing to use the terminal. I'm very competent at using the terminal myself and have installed Arch Linux from the base image before but it's not exactly user friendly. As I mentioned before though, Windows does install some quite recent NVIDIA drivers automatically via Windows Update. And if you don't want to use GFE, you can just go to the NVIDIA website and install the latest drivers that way.
        WD-42 5y ago
        OK, replace a single terminal command in Linux with opening the software app, searching for Nvidia, and clicking install. This would be the user friendly process on pretty much any mainstream distribution for getting the latest drivers. Having to navigate through Nvidia's website, create an account, and download a bunch of bloatware that takes forever to install is barbaric. Calling Windows user friendly is a meme at this point.
    - benbristow 5y ago
      Here's a forum thread I've found for example, from 2019. One of the top results on Google. https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=294777 https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=294777 The thread's mental. Why does OP need to figure out the device ID of their mouse and run terminal commands to change the speed of their mouse?
      - marcodiego 5y ago
        I stand with my position. My laptop has Ubuntu 20.04 installed. I plugged a mouse. To set its speed, I simply press super and type "mouse", click on the mouse settings that appears; there is a slider to set its speed. Considering this is from GNOME I don't believe the procedure is different in most popular linux distros. And here is the TOP google result I search "linux how to set mouse speed": https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-sensitivity.html.en https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-sensitivity...
    - monocasa 5y ago
      Mint isn't really a beginner's distro, but instead a striped down distro. It's for the people who pine for the early 2000s Linux experience.
      - benbristow 5y ago
        Claims from Linux Mint's website - https://linuxmint.com/ https://linuxmint.com/: "The latest version of the friendly operating system is here. Install it on your computer today!" "It is designed to work 'out of the box'" "Most of our users come from Windows and they never look back." "It's very easy to use. It features an intuitive desktop and adopts KISS principles. Anyone can rapidly feel at home and use Linux Mint. User experience, workflow and comfort is key." Sounds like a beginner's distro to me. I always thought they were trying to go after a more beginner audience also as they pre-install all the proprietary codecs and a large collection of software that you'd most likely want to use out of the box as a beginner (not stripped down like you say). Good luck if you want to use Google with autocomplete as your default search engine on the preinstalled Firefox though.
        monocasa 5y ago
        I can see how you'd take that from that marketing literature, but when they talk about KISS principles and what have you, they're talking about config files rather than GUIs for power user configuration. They don't really have the resources for anything else. A more mainstream distro is what you're looking for if you want a consistent, modern experience.
        benbristow 5y ago
        Mint ranks in the top 5 for the past 12 months on DistroWatch.com, even above Ubuntu. If Mint isn't mainstream, what is? Probably just Ubuntu, and maybe PopOS?
        monocasa 5y ago
        The distrowatch ranking is heavily gamed to the point of being useless. That's why MX Linux is the top now. Top distros actually being used are Ubuntu, Fedora, and Suse on the desktop, Debian and CentOS (or RHEL if you pay for it) on the server.
- kaba0 5y ago
  That’s just demonstratively false (with eg. Gnome, it is just settings and start searching for it, or click the mouse icon), and I hardly believe someone would have an easier time doing that with Windows, with the 3 separate settings menu, all looking different.
  - benbristow 5y ago
    On Windows 11 I just search for 'Mouse' in the start menu and one settings menu (the new settings UI) showed up with a nice slider. Even lets you swap the primary mouse button from left->right if you're wanting to do that. That was just one example though. I'd argue like 90% of searches for Linux help have an answer which contains 'run this in a terminal'.
    - WD-42 5y ago
      That’s just not true though. Configurations that still require terminal commands on Linux are on par with stuff you’d have to use regedit for on Windows. And I’d take a config file over the windows registry any day.
    - teddyfrozevelt 5y ago
      And on GNOME 40 I can search mouse, and go directly to gnome-control-center with a nice slider for mouse speed. It also even lets me swap the primary mouse button to the left or right button.
    - zrm 5y ago
      > I'd argue like 90% of searches for Linux help have an answer which contains 'run this in a terminal'. Why is this even bad if 'run this in a terminal' actually fixes the problem?
      - benbristow 5y ago
        Because it's not user friendly in the slightest, and for the average user they perhaps wouldn't know if the command is malicious or not. I remember when I was younger (like 5/6 years old!) and would accidentally reboot Windows 98 into DOS mode and almost start crying thinking that I'd broken the computer and would have to ask my dad who would reboot the machine. I work in development teams (.NET mainly so most are GUI-centric) where full-blown developers get uneasy with PowerShell/CMD.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- likeclockwork 5y ago
  What's so wrong with running shell commands and editing config files? Why must users never learn anything? Why must everything be dumbed until it can be operated only with point-and-grunt? I guess you could make a configuration GUI that purports to let people click to set every option in the system, because they must never type for some reason, but how easy do you think that is to go actually use? There's always something off "the beaten track".
  - benbristow 5y ago
    > Why must everything be dumbed until it can be operated only with point-and-grunt Why do you think products like the iPad and iPhone are so successful? They work with no configuration and pretty much anyone can use them without too many issues.
    - likeclockwork 5y ago
      And if there ever was anything you might have an opinion on or need for and want to configure chances are those products will tell you to go jump in a lake. When you make the whole of the world a GUI suddenly only features for which convenient GUIs can be made cheaply and pretty enough are worth supporting.
  - grp000 5y ago
    Yeah, you're completely right, in fact, GUIs were just a total mistake. Let's just all go back to command-line all the time /s. When it comes down to it, computers are a means to an end, so why make the means harder than it has to be, especially for someone who doesn't work in an IT related space?
- marcodiego 5y ago
  > I'm not making this up Yes you are. Here is THE top google result I search "linux how to set mouse speed": https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-sensitivity.html.en https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-sensitivity...
  - zerocount 5y ago
    Following your link takes me to an Ubuntu page. The first step is to open the 'Activities' overview and start typing 'Mouse & Touchpad.' What's 'Activities'? So I click on 'Activities' and it takes me to a Gnome page. What if I'm not using Gnome? What if I'm not using Ubuntu? Is it the same in KDE or Cinnamon? How about different Linux distributions? Linux has become ridiculous in this regard, and that's the reason Linux will never be more than a geek operating system. A place where the tech savvy can praise it's features and crap all over Windows, which is only for the unwashed masses who aren't smart enough to see the obvious inferiority of Windows and the great evil empire that is Microsoft. Yes, the desktop revolution is here! Finally we are free of Windows. Please... Windows is easier and more user friendly than Linux. Full stop.
    - marcodiego 5y ago
      > Following your link takes me to an Ubuntu page. The first step is to open the 'Activities' overview and start typing 'Mouse & Touchpad.' What's 'Activities'? It is the screen that shows when you click the top left corner. It is very obvious: there's 'Activities' written right there. > So I click on 'Activities' and it takes me to a Gnome page. What if I'm not using Gnome? Most popular linux distros nowadays default to GNOME. If you're not using it, you're probably tech savvy enough to search for yourself and not need this kind of help. > What if I'm not using Ubuntu? Read above. > Is it the same in KDE or Cinnamon? How about different Linux distributions? Read Above. > Linux has become ridiculous in this regard, and that's the reason Linux will never be more than a geek operating system. Linux is no longer a geek operating system. > A place where the tech savvy can praise it's features and crap all over Windows, which is only for the unwashed masses who aren't smart enough to see the obvious inferiority of Windows and the great evil empire that is Microsoft. Yes... I think I have to admit that I bashed windows and (indirectly) microsoft in this thread... That was uncalled for and is more emotion and feelings than reason. Sorry for that. Thinking a little better... I don't regret it. They deserve! > Yes, the desktop revolution is here! Finally we are free of Windows. Please... Windows is easier and more user friendly than Linux. Full stop. This one I can't disagree. Haven't been using much windows for a long time.

by zrm 5y ago

benbristow 5y ago

> If you put a Linux machine in front of, say, a 15 year old, they immediately figure it out. Until they need to do anything off the beaten track, which can be something as simple as changing the mouse speed (I'm not making this up) and you google it and it's telling you to run terminal commands and update your Xorg.conf file.

marcodiego 5y ago
On my Ubuntu 20.04 machine: pressed super (windows key), typed "mouse"; it showed me mouse setting which I clicked; there was a slider named "touchpad speed". It is nowhere near complicated and you don't have to run terminal commands or update your Xorg.conf file.
- benbristow 5y ago
  That's touchpad speed though, not mouse speed. And this was on Linux Mint, which is meant to be a beginner's Linux distro.
  - marcodiego 5y ago
    Sorry, I bit it. Plugged a mouse just to test it: the procedure is EXACTLY the same. And Ubuntu is not a hard for beginners distro. You're parroting outdated false comments.
    - benbristow 5y ago
      I think I was on KDE and tried to change my mouse speed and couldn't find a slider to save my life. It was just one example though. I tried to install a NVIDIA driver for example on Linux Mint and it wouldn't work until I edited some file to use a different kernel module that would start earlier. Spent ages trying to debug it. On Windows the driver gets installed automatically and if I want to update it I just launch the Geforce Experience and hit one button.
      - WD-42 5y ago
        Ah yes, Geforce Experience. You mean the bloatware Nvidia makes you create an account for just to install their drivers? On Linux I simply type pacman -S nvidia to install the drivers on my system. Reboot and it's done. There is even a GUI to install packages, since that seems like it's important for you.
        benbristow 5y ago
        You're talking about Arch Linux there though which definitely isn't for the average user, and again you're needing to use the terminal. I'm very competent at using the terminal myself and have installed Arch Linux from the base image before but it's not exactly user friendly. As I mentioned before though, Windows does install some quite recent NVIDIA drivers automatically via Windows Update. And if you don't want to use GFE, you can just go to the NVIDIA website and install the latest drivers that way.
        WD-42 5y ago
        OK, replace a single terminal command in Linux with opening the software app, searching for Nvidia, and clicking install. This would be the user friendly process on pretty much any mainstream distribution for getting the latest drivers. Having to navigate through Nvidia's website, create an account, and download a bunch of bloatware that takes forever to install is barbaric. Calling Windows user friendly is a meme at this point.
  - benbristow 5y ago
    Here's a forum thread I've found for example, from 2019. One of the top results on Google. https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=294777 https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=294777 The thread's mental. Why does OP need to figure out the device ID of their mouse and run terminal commands to change the speed of their mouse?
    - marcodiego 5y ago
      I stand with my position. My laptop has Ubuntu 20.04 installed. I plugged a mouse. To set its speed, I simply press super and type "mouse", click on the mouse settings that appears; there is a slider to set its speed. Considering this is from GNOME I don't believe the procedure is different in most popular linux distros. And here is the TOP google result I search "linux how to set mouse speed": https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-sensitivity.html.en https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-sensitivity...
  - monocasa 5y ago
    Mint isn't really a beginner's distro, but instead a striped down distro. It's for the people who pine for the early 2000s Linux experience.
    - benbristow 5y ago
      Claims from Linux Mint's website - https://linuxmint.com/ https://linuxmint.com/: "The latest version of the friendly operating system is here. Install it on your computer today!" "It is designed to work 'out of the box'" "Most of our users come from Windows and they never look back." "It's very easy to use. It features an intuitive desktop and adopts KISS principles. Anyone can rapidly feel at home and use Linux Mint. User experience, workflow and comfort is key." Sounds like a beginner's distro to me. I always thought they were trying to go after a more beginner audience also as they pre-install all the proprietary codecs and a large collection of software that you'd most likely want to use out of the box as a beginner (not stripped down like you say). Good luck if you want to use Google with autocomplete as your default search engine on the preinstalled Firefox though.
      - monocasa 5y ago
        I can see how you'd take that from that marketing literature, but when they talk about KISS principles and what have you, they're talking about config files rather than GUIs for power user configuration. They don't really have the resources for anything else. A more mainstream distro is what you're looking for if you want a consistent, modern experience.
        benbristow 5y ago
        Mint ranks in the top 5 for the past 12 months on DistroWatch.com, even above Ubuntu. If Mint isn't mainstream, what is? Probably just Ubuntu, and maybe PopOS?
        monocasa 5y ago
        The distrowatch ranking is heavily gamed to the point of being useless. That's why MX Linux is the top now. Top distros actually being used are Ubuntu, Fedora, and Suse on the desktop, Debian and CentOS (or RHEL if you pay for it) on the server.
kaba0 5y ago
That’s just demonstratively false (with eg. Gnome, it is just settings and start searching for it, or click the mouse icon), and I hardly believe someone would have an easier time doing that with Windows, with the 3 separate settings menu, all looking different.
- benbristow 5y ago
  On Windows 11 I just search for 'Mouse' in the start menu and one settings menu (the new settings UI) showed up with a nice slider. Even lets you swap the primary mouse button from left->right if you're wanting to do that. That was just one example though. I'd argue like 90% of searches for Linux help have an answer which contains 'run this in a terminal'.
  - WD-42 5y ago
    That’s just not true though. Configurations that still require terminal commands on Linux are on par with stuff you’d have to use regedit for on Windows. And I’d take a config file over the windows registry any day.
  - teddyfrozevelt 5y ago
    And on GNOME 40 I can search mouse, and go directly to gnome-control-center with a nice slider for mouse speed. It also even lets me swap the primary mouse button to the left or right button.
  - zrm 5y ago
    > I'd argue like 90% of searches for Linux help have an answer which contains 'run this in a terminal'. Why is this even bad if 'run this in a terminal' actually fixes the problem?
    - benbristow 5y ago
      Because it's not user friendly in the slightest, and for the average user they perhaps wouldn't know if the command is malicious or not. I remember when I was younger (like 5/6 years old!) and would accidentally reboot Windows 98 into DOS mode and almost start crying thinking that I'd broken the computer and would have to ask my dad who would reboot the machine. I work in development teams (.NET mainly so most are GUI-centric) where full-blown developers get uneasy with PowerShell/CMD.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
likeclockwork 5y ago
What's so wrong with running shell commands and editing config files? Why must users never learn anything? Why must everything be dumbed until it can be operated only with point-and-grunt? I guess you could make a configuration GUI that purports to let people click to set every option in the system, because they must never type for some reason, but how easy do you think that is to go actually use? There's always something off "the beaten track".
- benbristow 5y ago
  > Why must everything be dumbed until it can be operated only with point-and-grunt Why do you think products like the iPad and iPhone are so successful? They work with no configuration and pretty much anyone can use them without too many issues.
  - likeclockwork 5y ago
    And if there ever was anything you might have an opinion on or need for and want to configure chances are those products will tell you to go jump in a lake. When you make the whole of the world a GUI suddenly only features for which convenient GUIs can be made cheaply and pretty enough are worth supporting.
- grp000 5y ago
  Yeah, you're completely right, in fact, GUIs were just a total mistake. Let's just all go back to command-line all the time /s. When it comes down to it, computers are a means to an end, so why make the means harder than it has to be, especially for someone who doesn't work in an IT related space?
marcodiego 5y ago
> I'm not making this up Yes you are. Here is THE top google result I search "linux how to set mouse speed": https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-sensitivity.html.en https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-sensitivity...
- zerocount 5y ago
  Following your link takes me to an Ubuntu page. The first step is to open the 'Activities' overview and start typing 'Mouse & Touchpad.' What's 'Activities'? So I click on 'Activities' and it takes me to a Gnome page. What if I'm not using Gnome? What if I'm not using Ubuntu? Is it the same in KDE or Cinnamon? How about different Linux distributions? Linux has become ridiculous in this regard, and that's the reason Linux will never be more than a geek operating system. A place where the tech savvy can praise it's features and crap all over Windows, which is only for the unwashed masses who aren't smart enough to see the obvious inferiority of Windows and the great evil empire that is Microsoft. Yes, the desktop revolution is here! Finally we are free of Windows. Please... Windows is easier and more user friendly than Linux. Full stop.
  - marcodiego 5y ago
    > Following your link takes me to an Ubuntu page. The first step is to open the 'Activities' overview and start typing 'Mouse & Touchpad.' What's 'Activities'? It is the screen that shows when you click the top left corner. It is very obvious: there's 'Activities' written right there. > So I click on 'Activities' and it takes me to a Gnome page. What if I'm not using Gnome? Most popular linux distros nowadays default to GNOME. If you're not using it, you're probably tech savvy enough to search for yourself and not need this kind of help. > What if I'm not using Ubuntu? Read above. > Is it the same in KDE or Cinnamon? How about different Linux distributions? Read Above. > Linux has become ridiculous in this regard, and that's the reason Linux will never be more than a geek operating system. Linux is no longer a geek operating system. > A place where the tech savvy can praise it's features and crap all over Windows, which is only for the unwashed masses who aren't smart enough to see the obvious inferiority of Windows and the great evil empire that is Microsoft. Yes... I think I have to admit that I bashed windows and (indirectly) microsoft in this thread... That was uncalled for and is more emotion and feelings than reason. Sorry for that. Thinking a little better... I don't regret it. They deserve! > Yes, the desktop revolution is here! Finally we are free of Windows. Please... Windows is easier and more user friendly than Linux. Full stop. This one I can't disagree. Haven't been using much windows for a long time.