4 ms·

People are people and many don't understand or are actively afraid of technology. They have jobs to do and if they don't know you, they may be skeptical about

People are people and many don't understand or are actively afraid of technology. They have jobs to do and if they don't know you, they may be skeptical about what you can do for them. They might even have been burned in past by developers who promise but don't deliver. Knowing how to talk to people to get your project done is a great skill.

Jensson 5y ago
> Knowing how to talk to people to get your project done is a great skill. Right, so why would your company hire people who are so bad at talking to people that the developer has to go to such lengths to save that persons project? I wouldn't want to work there.
- wvenable 5y ago
  So your argument is companies should hire people who good at communication so they can hire a developer who isn't?
  - Jensson 5y ago
    My argument is that you can meet them halfway rather than dumping all the responsibility on the developer like this guy does. But as a consultant I guess his job is to help toxic managers hire people they can work with, if that is the case he doesn't have a choice to change the manager.
    - jrochkind1 5y ago
      Would you say your discussion style in this thread is "meeting halfway", and typical of your discussion style at work? What would you say characterizes a "toxic" discussion style, or "being so bad at talking to people"?
      - Jensson 5y ago
        No, I am much more aggressive online since I want to point holes in things. I doubt many people talk the same way online as they do at their job. It isn't like you expect a sales person to be all happy when he is at home. > What would you say characterizes a "toxic" discussion style, or "being so bad at talking to people"? People who can't talk normally due to some of the following reasons, if these are issues you have to deal with at your job instead of they dealing with it themselves then you work with people who lack social skills: > People are people and many don't understand or are actively afraid of technology. They have jobs to do and if they don't know you, they may be skeptical about what you can do for them. They might even have been burned in past by developers who promise but don't deliver.
        wvenable 5y ago
        You have a strange idea of what talking normally is. Fears, concerns, having different priorities, working under their own deadlines, and so on are all normal for other people.
        Jensson 5y ago
        But a manager dumping those feelings on their developers is still toxic. They are coming from a position of power, asks the technologist to solve a problem, all the while demanding the technologist assures the manager that the technologist will do the job and that now the technologist will ask questions so the technologist can perform the job well instead of just wasting the managers precious time. I don't see how anyone can think this situation isn't toxic.
        wvenable 5y ago
        I don't think the in-article example is a good one. However, the sentiment that developers need to have good soft skills if they work with end users is an important one. It doesn't matter how good you are building software if you build the wrong software.
    - wvenable 5y ago
      Nowhere does it say all the responsibility is on the developer. But being able to ask questions without putting people on the defensive is hugely important. Many software projects directly involve fundamentally changing someone else's work (hopefully for the better). You might not think that's a big deal but I can assure you it's a big deal for them. And for your project to succeed, you're going to need to recognize these factors and deal it. I consider it like training -- anyone who've I already successfully completed a project with me knows how these things go and is perfectly comfortable. People I've not worked with before often need a softer approach until they've gone through a full successful project.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        Doesn't sound like any of the tech jobs I've had. But I agree if your job is to replace people with technology rather than build new products for end users then your social skills will matter much more, but this article didn't made it clear that he wanted to hire engineers for that specific purpose.
        wvenable 5y ago
        If you never talk to your end users obviously you don't need social skills for talking to end users. Lots of development/tech jobs don't require talking to users.
        Jensson 5y ago
        Btw, you might not have realized but the article was talking about a manager going with a request to developers. So it is absolutely the managers fault here, nothing you say can convince me otherwise, a manager shouldn't demand this from developers.
        wvenable 5y ago
        The example is too vague to really make a conclusion. However, I was really just replying to that sentences that you quoted and disagreed with. In my opinion, those two sentences are perfectly valid.
yobbo 5y ago
> People are people and many don't understand or are actively afraid of technology. One possible alternative is that people are suspicious/defensive (sometimes justifiably) when techies ask questions about "what problems are you having?" and "what do you typically do when ___?" To them, it might seem like they are being interrogated by someone ostensibly below their rank. To be fair, this is sometimes exactly what is happening. A techie is sent in to investigate automating a bullshit job, but neither the techie or the person is told this in clear terms.
- wvenable 5y ago
  Also these people are the experts and often you're the novice in their domain. Understanding that part of the relationship is important. In my experience, people are very happy when I automate some bullshit part of their job. However, you are going to waste their time getting that automation done. So you have to sell them that it's worth making their job worse in the short term to make it better in the long time. If you're a terrible communicator, they're not going to trust that it's worth it.

Jensson 5y ago

> Knowing how to talk to people to get your project done is a great skill. Right, so why would your company hire people who are so bad at talking to people that the developer has to go to such lengths to save that persons project? I wouldn't want to work there.

wvenable 5y ago
So your argument is companies should hire people who good at communication so they can hire a developer who isn't?
- Jensson 5y ago
  My argument is that you can meet them halfway rather than dumping all the responsibility on the developer like this guy does. But as a consultant I guess his job is to help toxic managers hire people they can work with, if that is the case he doesn't have a choice to change the manager.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    Would you say your discussion style in this thread is "meeting halfway", and typical of your discussion style at work? What would you say characterizes a "toxic" discussion style, or "being so bad at talking to people"?
    - Jensson 5y ago
      No, I am much more aggressive online since I want to point holes in things. I doubt many people talk the same way online as they do at their job. It isn't like you expect a sales person to be all happy when he is at home. > What would you say characterizes a "toxic" discussion style, or "being so bad at talking to people"? People who can't talk normally due to some of the following reasons, if these are issues you have to deal with at your job instead of they dealing with it themselves then you work with people who lack social skills: > People are people and many don't understand or are actively afraid of technology. They have jobs to do and if they don't know you, they may be skeptical about what you can do for them. They might even have been burned in past by developers who promise but don't deliver.
      - wvenable 5y ago
        You have a strange idea of what talking normally is. Fears, concerns, having different priorities, working under their own deadlines, and so on are all normal for other people.
        Jensson 5y ago
        But a manager dumping those feelings on their developers is still toxic. They are coming from a position of power, asks the technologist to solve a problem, all the while demanding the technologist assures the manager that the technologist will do the job and that now the technologist will ask questions so the technologist can perform the job well instead of just wasting the managers precious time. I don't see how anyone can think this situation isn't toxic.
        wvenable 5y ago
        I don't think the in-article example is a good one. However, the sentiment that developers need to have good soft skills if they work with end users is an important one. It doesn't matter how good you are building software if you build the wrong software.
  - wvenable 5y ago
    Nowhere does it say all the responsibility is on the developer. But being able to ask questions without putting people on the defensive is hugely important. Many software projects directly involve fundamentally changing someone else's work (hopefully for the better). You might not think that's a big deal but I can assure you it's a big deal for them. And for your project to succeed, you're going to need to recognize these factors and deal it. I consider it like training -- anyone who've I already successfully completed a project with me knows how these things go and is perfectly comfortable. People I've not worked with before often need a softer approach until they've gone through a full successful project.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      Doesn't sound like any of the tech jobs I've had. But I agree if your job is to replace people with technology rather than build new products for end users then your social skills will matter much more, but this article didn't made it clear that he wanted to hire engineers for that specific purpose.
      - wvenable 5y ago
        If you never talk to your end users obviously you don't need social skills for talking to end users. Lots of development/tech jobs don't require talking to users.
        Jensson 5y ago
        Btw, you might not have realized but the article was talking about a manager going with a request to developers. So it is absolutely the managers fault here, nothing you say can convince me otherwise, a manager shouldn't demand this from developers.
        wvenable 5y ago
        The example is too vague to really make a conclusion. However, I was really just replying to that sentences that you quoted and disagreed with. In my opinion, those two sentences are perfectly valid.

yobbo 5y ago

> People are people and many don't understand or are actively afraid of technology. One possible alternative is that people are suspicious/defensive (sometimes justifiably) when techies ask questions about "what problems are you having?" and "what do you typically do when ___?" To them, it might seem like they are being interrogated by someone ostensibly below their rank. To be fair, this is sometimes exactly what is happening. A techie is sent in to investigate automating a bullshit job, but neither the techie or the person is told this in clear terms.

wvenable 5y ago
Also these people are the experts and often you're the novice in their domain. Understanding that part of the relationship is important. In my experience, people are very happy when I automate some bullshit part of their job. However, you are going to waste their time getting that automation done. So you have to sell them that it's worth making their job worse in the short term to make it better in the long time. If you're a terrible communicator, they're not going to trust that it's worth it.