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Sometimes I wonder what a "cheating allowed, as long as you aren't caught" tournament for intellectual games would look like. Chess, Poker, etc. If you get caug
by umvi 5y ago
Sometimes I wonder what a "cheating allowed, as long as you aren't caught" tournament for intellectual games would look like. Chess, Poker, etc. If you get caught you are disqualified.
If there were a monetary incentive it would probably turn into a race-to-the-bottom optimization problem where people are stuffing computers into body cavities, but still fun to think about.
- duxup 5y agoHow much any given situation already is your first sentence ;) I recall a story where a person negotiated a game (I forget what game) at a casino to play for big money. They demanded someone come with them (this person was a known card cheat) specific brand of cards to be used, and some other things. Turns out they knew of a flaw in the printing of those cards. Casino found out about the flaw after they won big and refused to pay. The fact that they allowed a cheat and specific cards made it seem like the scenario you describe ;)
- stupandaus 5y agoNot sure if you are misremembering the Phil Ivey edge sorting case [1] or if you are thinking of another story. Notable in this case that the casinos won in the end. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Ivey#Edge-sorting_litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Ivey#Edge-sorting_litigat...
- duxup 5y agoThat's not the one I'm thinking of but his history is amusing.
- citizenpaul 5y agoIve seen enough f these such cases that i cannot believe that anyone spends money in a casino anymore. If the casino can claw back winnings even if the person did in fact "exploit" the game they can do it for any outsize win. Basically nullifying the reason anyone plays games of chance.
- josephcsible 5y ago> Casino found out about the flaw after they won big and refused to pay. Did the casino also refund 100% of everyone's losses who ever played with the flawed brand of cards? If not, that seems like a horrific double standard.
- duxup 5y agoThe player negotiated the brand of cards to be used. I'm guessing if that brad was the Casino's default, that they'd wouldn't have had to specify it.
- koboll 5y agoIsn't that every tournament? Cheating is always "allowed" if you aren't caught.
- cortesoft 5y agoIt’s life in general.
- spindle 5y agoI think the idea is that you'd be considered to have played honourably but merely lost the match, whereas (at least in the case I know about, which is go/baduk) you're also shamed for life. Sounds like a fun idea to me, not to replace the current rules but as a different game.
- brianwawok 5y agoYou can't really cheat in Chess. I mean you can con-man move 2 pieces, but its very very easy to detect with spectators (and impossible online)... Vs team card games... where you have 2 players working together that aren't allowed to talk. The only way to "fix" this is allow full communication between partners. Allow them to text during the game. Or any kind of signal. You need to level the playing field. The honor system is fine for a fun game with friends, but not fine in anything "competitive".
- Iefthandrule 5y agoThere are plenty of ways to cheat at chess. Here's one: program chess pieces to make the optimal move for you. If you are not allowed to provide the pieces, find out the pieces being used ahead of time and create programmable replicas. Then swap each piece out with your programmed pieces under your sleeve.
- brianwawok 5y agoBut easy to verify. Strip search before game, etc.
- Iefthandrule 5y agoThat's why you pay off the guards, etc.
- neaden 5y agoPeople cheat in chess all the time, using an engine to help them out, or before that getting outside assistance. Take a look into the Korchnoi v Karpov match for world champion which had accusations of cheating involving secret messages in yogur and one player hiring a hypnotist to be in the audience and the other responding by befriending two local murderers and bringing them to the match. More recently Anna Rudolph was accused of hiding a computer in her lip balm.
- yifanl 5y ago
- LanceH 5y agoIt would depend on how cheating is defined. Take chess for example. Online it is considered enough that you've played too consistently beyond human capability in order to be deemed a cheater. This isn't proof, though, it just that it defies astronomical odds. In over the board play, it is required that the mechanism be discovered -- you have to catch them with an app on their phone for example. Or that they break tournament rules by not showing you what's on their phone. The point above being that cheating would likely (eventually) elevate to the point of building the ruleset such that one's particular method of "cheating" is allowed, or can't be discovered. I think with a lot of things we're already there now. F1 has people clearly "cheating" every intention of the rules, but if it's not in the rulebook it is legal until the rulebook is changed. Players in a variety of sporting leagues are only drug tested with urine samples that have been beatable for decades -- they're effectively not actually testing these players -- cheating has effectively been negotiated into the rulebook.
- gpm 5y agoCheating isn't defined in online chess as that, it's defined as using outside help. That's just a description of the (flawed) detection mechanism. I think it's an incomplete description to, I'm pretty sure move times are also taken into account, and lichess apparently uses some client side behavioral signals too (and doesn't let you play via API in the fast time formats where those signals help). It's still cheating even if you aren't caught.
- ALittleLight 5y agoThis could be the premise of a reality TV show. Five professional poker players. Five slight of hand / card magicians. One poker tournament.